My first voyage with Voyager

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Qutluch, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Brevity? :(

    It's like you don't know me.

    in infinite regress they discovered that Seven of Nine was dominating hundreds, possibly thousands of complete and intact consciousnesses, some human many familiar, but Janeway was willing to sacrifice all of those poor bastards to bring back the near blank slate Borg personality that had been conjured by the Queen to act as a facilitator and not a scared 8 year old little girl. cut and paste vs. copy and paste, if Janeway had built all those live holographic lifeboats would Seven still have had a working personality with all that multiplicity of character stripped from her soul?
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If Tuvix consents, then this is a shit story.

    You get something like Similitude on Enterprise.

    Remember the first time Riker saw that there was a clone of himself?

    He disintegrates it and then says "The universe is only big enough for one Will Riker."

    This I believe was not Deanna Troi's point of view.
     
  3. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just wanted to be clear what points I was responding to, although I really liked your description of Kes & Neelix's relationship. ;)
     
  4. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Having an occasionally (or more often) unsympathetic protagonist *is* tricky. And it may be a matter of taste. I like to be challenged that way. Sometimes. Other times, I enjoy throwing whatever knitting work-in-progress is at hand at my TV. :p
     
  5. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What if Tuvix had been an aggressive, angry emulsion of the two? If his unrepressed Vulcan emotion had been the dominant personality rather than being the slightly smarter version of Neelix we got?

    And he raged and demanded that he be allowed to live?

    Would there be the same level of sympathy?
     
  6. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yep. Just because someone is unlikeable, doesn't mean they don't deserve to live.
     
  7. Alpha Flyer

    Alpha Flyer Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Let's hear it for pragmatism. There's not enough of that around!

    Me, I like the episode (like Season 6's Memorial) simply for the ethical debate it stirs up; for the best of those there's no clear outcome. The debate itself is the thing -- questioning, probing, thinking.

    Oh, and that makes for the best Trek episodes. Funny, that...
     
  8. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So if this was all because Kes was crying what would have happened if Kes had liked Tuvix better?

    "Captain everything that was ever missing in my love for Neelix is now embodied in Tuvix, this is the happiest I have ever been!"
     
  9. Delsaber

    Delsaber Commodore Commodore

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    Tuvix made me cry when I was a kid.

    I remember telling an ex-girlfriend that years later. "Cute", she said. Then she laughed at me. Pfft.

    True story.
     
  10. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You're well rid of her.
     
  11. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    Hell, Tuvix almost made me cry when I watched it yesterday!
     
  12. Delsaber

    Delsaber Commodore Commodore

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    I'll say this for it, that was one of the few Voyager episodes capable of playing around with the emotions of its audience. I'm not even sure if I'd need all five fingers on one hand to count those.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    All Kes crying over wanting Neelix back did was just demonstrate Janeway had a preset disposition against Tuvix. She was critical of him because he was so desperate for his life, begging already having failed he sent Kes to beg on his behalf.

    It's a non-factor. Janeway had already decided it was within her right to play god with his life. That's the root of her wrong. If Kes had spoken on Tuvix's behalf, it's debatable whether Janeway would have gone through with it or not. This is really a situation where one person standing up for him may have made a difference. One person saying it was wrong. Well the Doctor did, but Janeway is on record saying he isn't a person.
     
  14. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The first time I watched Tuvix I thought it was utterly retarded. I couldn't get past the blending of two people in the transporter, it was just waaaaaay too eye rolling for me.

    Hey you know what would have been a good move.. remove all the Tuvok parts to get Tuvok back but leave a copy of those parts in Tuvix. This way we get to keep Tuvix, get rid of Neelix and still have a Vulcan as a main character.
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's Star Trek, silly implausible things are part of it. I was actually disappointed there was no flower popping out of his neck since the Doctor said there were PLANTS in his DNA. :p

    Really between transporter and replicator technology you think you'd be able to duplicate him(which transporters can do see Second Chance) and separate the other two. As much as I don't like Neelix, just because he's a jerk doesn't mean he deserves death. :p
     
  16. Delsaber

    Delsaber Commodore Commodore

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    Not death, no. Though perhaps life imprisonment off-camera...
     
  17. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    Boo to you Neelix haters! He makes me laugh!
     
  18. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh I don't hate him, though my tolerance has recently taken a steep dive.

    And yes, I was waiting for Tuvix to blossom as well. Those flowers have incredible application potential in genetic modification. Tuvix didn't even have health glitches. It's like the whole universe is just a bunch of Mr. Potato Head parts. Add flowers, transport and Yay, new cool stuff!
     
  19. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I tend to dislike the word hate. I just generally find Neelix annoying and well... a jerk. There are upcoming episodes where I'll rant further on that. ;)

    If you like him, more power to you and I wouldn't take that away from you. Just please... distract him while I order something from the replicator? :p
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If there was sympathy, they wouldn't have let Kathy Kill him.

    Even if the entire crew said "let him live" it was till supposedly the Captain's call... For as long as as they were all on Federation soil. If Tuvix got off the ship, Kathryn lost all her legal powers as a Starfleet Captain.

    What if Neelix said a magic word like "Asylum"?

    Would Janeway protect Tuvix from Janeway?

    Would Janeway be of two minds about how to treat a man of two minds?

    There's no way Neelix did exit that entanglement without a healthy dose of Tuvok's cosmic Clap, and
    Neelix now probably has exactly the same psychological triggers to be a serial killer that that Bajoran nutjob beat into Tuvok which seemed so troublesome in Repression.

    You can't keep a compelling story without hard choices.

    One choice is no choice.