My first voyage with Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Qutluch, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But.. how do you know?

    What if there had been a scene at the end of the episode where Neelix and Tuvok spoke of their horror of being trapped and controlled by a being who was both them and something not-them? Would you feel differently about it?
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Actually as the Captain, there are several legal means and reasons for by which she could call for the execution or sacrifice of her crew... But this would be a significantly illegal one since Neelix wasn't a member of Starfleet which limits the ramifications of disobeying her legal orders and most definitely her illegal orders.

    In the season 6 episode "Riddles" Tuvok acquires a new personality which he was intent on keeping until Neelix talks him into submitting to a lobotomy to restore the original personality.

    Also in Season 6, Tuvok the Borg looked like he really got off on being Borg, but they stripped him of that choice too.

    Then of course there was the 2 and a half minutes in which Tuvok was a Romulan in Meld who was ADAMANT that he did not consider he could stand life as a wussy if he was put back inside that Vulcan shaped box again.

    The Doctor had no problem with neutering that version of Tuvok.

    None whatsoever.

    Janeway let a definition of her personality die to kill that clown.

    B'Elanna took a hydrospanner to a missile who thought that it were she.

    What about when B'Elanna met herself and died, and then was forced to get dosed with a hunk of Klingon DNA or die from the lack of it inside her until the new person was almost indistinguishable from the original?
     
  3. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    Here we go again, it's the so called "pro-lifer" against the pro-abortionists arguments. There will never be a common ground. It's the episode that those who are inclined to hate Janeway give for their justification. But the honest truth is the ending could have been no other way.

    Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips had contracts, Kenneth Biller did not. The story could only go one way.
     
  4. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    Your post basically sums up the conversation I had with my husband this morning. While, I think the episode was well-done I am less and less impressed with it. Why make Janeway into a killer? She seems to have a moral superiorty over everyone, but in the end she killed a man to benefit her own needs and emotions.
     
  5. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    Thanks for using a spoiler alert!
     
  6. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why make Janeway into a killer? Because she's human and flawed.

    That's what makes her interesting.
     
  7. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    She is interesting because she is a killer?
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What if Tuvok and Neelix were "screaming inside" to get out? They weren't, unless you think Tuvix just lied. Being he was honest enough to brand himself a coward, I doubt he'd have failed to mention it at the beginning. He clearly stated there was no multiple personality disorder and that he just had both of their memories.

    Sure there are places where the captain might have to order a crewman to sacrifice himself for the good of the ship. This isn't one of them. To say this was one of them is blatantly an insult to anyone who might sacrifice themselves. If Tuvix -volunteered- for this you could call that a sacrifice as it would be his to make.

    As for this decision making Janeway "interesting" and more human? What the heck? She's the main protagonist of the series and a Starfleet captain. Could you actually picture Picard or Kirk murdering a member of their crew against their will? Gul Dukat was an interesting character, but a good guy that does not make him.

    You can justify her actions all you want, that's all it is, a justification for murder and a very hallow one. Janeway is the captain, she's not god. Frankly it was arrogance of the first order for her to even presume this was her choice to make. To say nothing of lacking morality, though this is hardly the only morally lacking choice she makes.
     
  9. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She's interesting because she's flawed. Like all humans are.

    Look (and this goes for the next poster also), I've been one of the strongest critics of Janeway's actions in this episode over the years. She was wrong. Absolutely wrong. Tuvix was a living, breathing sentient being and Tuvok & Neelix's existences ended when they essentially died in a transporter accident. Tuvix did nothing that caused their demise & could not be held responsible for their deaths.

    That it appeared Janeway was swayed by Kes's emotional appeal makes it even worse, in my eyes.

    But I want the captain to make mistakes sometimes. I don't like perfect heroes.
     
  10. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    I think this episode had the potential to be one of the great ones if Tuvix made it his own decision in the end, or it would have made the moral-issue debate more interesting if Neelix and Tuvok made some emotional thank you to Janeway for saving them in the end. I like the premise of the episode and it was extremely well-acted, but I think the writers missed an opportunity in the ending, but then again, maybe they wanted us to debate this episode from one end of eternity to the next. Was there every an interview that talked about the writers intent for this episode?
     
  11. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    I went to memory alpha and read some of the writers quotes. It appears that the writer got what he wanted in the fans reaction.It is also interesting that the original ending had Tuvix sacrifice himself.


    "Ken Biller then took over responsibility for the episode. "I ended up taking it over and completely rewriting it," he said. "It was [a] tricky episode, because it could devolve into something farcical. It is another one of those semi-hokey sci-fi premises, sort of the opposite of what I got in 'Faces' [....] We wanted to do something a little more serious and philosophical [than the original plot] and it began to emerge as we talked about it that there was something interesting there once you got past the hokiness of the set up. It started out as a joke. What do you call the guy? Neelok? Tuvix? It almost felt like a '60s sit-com. Brannon [Braga] and I even [came] up with a little theme song. So the trick was to see if we could actually make something compelling out of it." Thus, the writers experimented with the notion of making Tuvix greater than either Tuvok or Neelix alone and asked themselves what would happen if the Voyager crew found a way to return Tuvix's two constituent parts. (Cinefantastique, Vol. 28, No. 4/5)
    Initially, the episode would have ended with Tuvix realizing, through some event or the reaction of the crew, that, for the greater good, he had to submit to the procedure of being split apart. "For a while that was the idea," recalled Ken Biller, "But then we began to talk about it and consider what if he really wanted to survive and he doesn't want to die and be killed. Michael [Piller] posed that question to me so I give Michael a lot of credit." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 28, No. 4/5)
    Ken Biller then aimed to dramatize Janeway's dilemma at the episode's climax as much as he could. He explained, "I hoped to create tension at the end where it would be difficult for anyone watching to know what the right thing to do was [....] I wanted to keep asking the audience, just keep poking at the audience. There isn't an answer [....] It was an opportunity to show [Janeway] making the really tough decisions which captains are faced with." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 28, No. 4/5)"
     
  12. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    I also forgot to note that I truly appreciated the Doctor's response; he could not "heal" Tuvok and Neelix because his hypocratic oath did not allow for him to harm Tuvix. It made the Doc seem very human. i could see this as a lauching point for his character to become more involved with the crew.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I do have to give it to Voyager in this circumstance, this is one of the few times they don't take the easy way out in a plot, and Tuvix conveniently sacrificing himself would have been very expedient for the plot. I just wish they would have thought about what they were doing in the end, because they really made their heroine look bad.

    I also understand the intent. Janeway's in charge and they want her to be the one making the call. But like in Caretaker, the writers focus so much on Janeway making -the- call, they don't stop and think about what call she's making. In Caretaker, Janeway orders the Array destroyed to deprive the Kazon of it instead of using it to get home. But when you stop and think about it, they already drove off the Kazon and they could have used it to get home and used an explosive device with a timer as it's detonator. So in exercising her authority in that one she just seems stupid.

    In Tuvix, Janeway again makes the call. Clearly they thought it out as Tuvix uses this argument in defending his own life, that it's not Janeway's call to make. But Janeway's the captain, she's making the tough choice, even though it's not hers to make and she's playing god with people's lives and taking one against his will. It's definitely a moral dilemma, but it's not Janeway's to resolve.

    Picard certainly would have given a stirring lecture about how the greater good should compel Tuvix to make the proper choice. Kirk probably would have insulted him into doing it by shaming him with his cowardice. Sure, Janeway isn't Kirk or Picard but I don't think either of them would take a man's life against their will in this circumstance. As for it making Janeway "more human" somehow? I don't see it. She's not the "hero" in this episode and is acting downright villainous.
     
  14. BruntFCA

    BruntFCA Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah Janeway committed pretty blatant murder here. As for Neelix and Tuvok I cant see either character being OK with Janeways decision.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvix did make a decision in the end.

    He wanted to live.
     
  16. Qutluch

    Qutluch Commander Red Shirt

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    On a complete side note; nice avatar!
     
  17. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not the last time Janeway will play god with people's lives & make tough calls that aren't really hers to make. I think that in trying to make their woman captain appear strong & decisive, they turned her into someone who makes a decision, then wallows in guilt over it later. Can't really go into any more detail at this point in the series.

    I'm not sure the "greater good" means that Tuvix has to sacrifice himself. Chakotay (wuss who says nothing when Tuvix is pleading for his life) said that Tuvix was an example of the whole being greater than the sum of his parts, and Janeway's log praised him as more than competent as both a chief of security and a chef.

    As for making her more human, it's the flaws that make us human. And heroes don't always act heroically. Sometimes they're driven by the same emotions the rest of us are.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A copy of Tuvok's katra was inside Lon Suder.

    Janeway could have just as easily ordered that Katra to overwhelm the Betazoid's personality, or the Doctor could have chemically suppressed Lon's Distinct higher functions.

    But the argument that swayed the captain was that Kes loved Neelix.

    Tuvok didn't have an advocate, although apparently Janeway knew his wife.

    Probably had dinner with her lots.

    "If it looks like he's going to die and my husband can't get home to me in time, I highly recommend that you offer yourself as my surrogate. He's actually quite talented"

    Until Kes started crying, Janeway was of a mind to let Tuvix live.

    And we all know that Kes' love for Neelix is infinite and forever.

    Thank god they're so stable and intertwined.

    Although if Tuvix wouldn't have kept trying to get his leg over, then Kes wouldn't have had such an extreme reaction to never again bumping fuzzies with the kitchenrat.
     
  19. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yep. And this made Janeway look like a fool.

    People die. That is life. It's actually the only thing we're guaranteed when we're born.

    And before anyone starts going, "well, if you lost a loved one & had a chance to bring him back..."

    I did. I was widowed at the age of 46. I would not take another's life to bring him back. That's simply immoral.
     
  20. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You're absolutely right about it not being the only ethically questionable call she makes. I get it that we make bad choices, but it makes it dang hard to sympathize with the main protagonist of a series when she's rather consistently pulling a stunt like this once a season or so.

    This really would have made a good two parter if the worked in a plot with the Kazon or another bad guy where Tuvix is dying and with his dying act consents to the procedure to save his "parents." Janeway wouldn't be a murderer and you'd have an uplifting, if sad sacrifice that added some meaning to the two characters.