Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Qutluch, Apr 14, 2012.
Welcome to BBS. It is a so much fun to have a spot to discuss each episode!!
Only part of it; when my husband felt that they were going to start revealing too much we headed out. Even though I wasn't in there long, it was pretty cool to get a look at the actors. Paris kind of reminded me of Drew Carey...
That was a fun opener: death, destruction, danger…Kazon. The Kazon attack again and a crew member died. Chakotay tells Janeway that they have to relax on Star Fleet rules and regulations and implement more Marquis-like tactics if they are going to avoid being destroyed by the Kazon.
After the memorial service a crew member goes to Janeway and argues that they should just give the Kazon a replicator and the items they want. That was just plain dumb, and he just pissed Janeway off. Then while she was still fuming Chakotay proposed that she make a pact with one of the Kazon’s other enemies in an attempt to lessen their power against them. Janeway, in my opinion, a smart move, went to Tuvok to get his opinion. Tuvok also agreed that Chakotay’s position was viable. He made a good point that the alliance would only be temporary until they were out of Kazon space. Luckily, Neelix had a friend in one of the Kazon fractions that he could speak with and Janeway decided to try and contact Seska for an alliance. I felt like that was a bad idea since Seska had already back-stabbed the Voyager crew already. She is not trust-worthy and I feel that it was out-of-character for Janeway to go to her without much thought when they had not tried Neelix’s contact yet.
Neelix’s encounter did not go so well. He was thrown into jail in a cave with many others. Eventually, the group overthrew their jail members took some ships and met up with the Voyager. The other inhabitants of the jail, the Trabe, explained their back history and Janeway suggested that their convoy and the Voyager team up together while they travel. Back on the ship, B’Elanna verbally lambastes a crew member, Hogan, who began to question Janeway’s competency. Unfortunately, Hogan secretly called Seska’s ship and offered to aid them himself.
Seska talks Culluh into uniting the Kazon fractions in order to gain power and take over the Voyager. We also find out that Seska and Culluh are having a baby! While in a meeting with the Kazon the Trabe tried to assassinate the Kazon leadership. Janeway figured out what was occurring and gave a warning before beaming out. I kind of feel like Janeway should have had the Kazon beamed out to in order to show that she was not behind the attack. I realize that the whole episode was done so Janeway could give her “we need rules and regulations” speech at the end, but I feel that many parts of the episode were badly executed. I think that they made a mistake with contacting Seska and another mistake when they did not beam the Kazon out of the meeting or at least blow up the attacking ship rather than firing a few shots at it.
Least favorite part: When Janeway so quickly and willingly met with Seska without even considering if she could be trusted.
Favorite part: Tuvok: “A visionary named Spock…”
I felt Janeway was basically forced to consider an alliance with the Kazon and even more so to contact Seska of all people. For me it was a most remarkable thing, that Janeway gave in. I think all the fighting, the casualties, the damages had her nerves on edge. And Seska still had friends on the ship, and probably not only in engineering. I had the feeling that they would have come pretty close to a mutiny if Janeway had proceeded her fight and flight mode. And IMO it was clearly visible how much Janeway detested making contact with the Kazon. She was clearly glad that Culluh blew that first meeting on Voyager. She tried, it didn't work. Good.
All in all I felt that some issues about this episode were indeed constructed to make a point in favour of Janeway's hold on to starfleet regulations. But this is what writers do in order to give the story a certain direction, no?
I liked that story a lot. It summed up a couple of profound issues: Is it wise to forge alliances with less developed (even aggressive) species? If so - how much are you willing to offer in return for ressources, protection and information? Where is the line of the Prime directive, since any alliance is prone to have an impact on the constellation of power in the sector? When becomes the own survival and the possibility to find a way back home more important than the prime directive? How far can you go to make compromises with half of the crew being not even federation members?
This episode becomes all the more amusing in reflection to a future season 3 episode.
I agree with those who said that Janeway was essentially covering her strategic bases -- as advocated by Chakotay and Tuvok -- with the alliance attempt, and that she was just as happy when she didn't have to go through with it. "Alliances" provides good atmospherics and background for future Kazon/Seska related episodes; I always saw it as a bit of a transition piece, with the side benefit of showing that in the Delta Quadrant you can't trust anyone, not even the apparently kind-hearted and downtrodden.
Well it there's any morals to this episode, Scorpion and Janeway both laugh at them.
WOW! It took me a couple of sit-downs to finish this episode. It is clearly the worst Star Trek episode I could ever imagine! Recap: Paris breaks Warp 10, Paris comes back, begins to evolve into a new species, dies, comes back to life, escapes, steals the Captain (we assume), brings her to a new planet, they both evolve into Salamanders, have babies, create a new race, leave the babies behind, and then pretend that nothing ever happened; particularly that the Captain and Paris mated!! I am positive that they will never refer to this in any future episodes either; not that Paris might be a little shaken up or feel the need to talk to someone, and I am sure that there won’t be any weird feelings between Janeway and Paris….
You can really stop reading here, but I am going to include my recap just so I remember how awful this episode was!!
In the opening I kept expecting Paris to suddenly explode. I don’t mind watching Paris fail; it amuses me. At this point I didn’t mind the technobabble about Warp 10, but my interest didn’t last long! Apparently, Warp 10 is theoretically impossible, but achieving warp 10 would allow a person to be in every point in the universe, simultaneously; thereby fixing Voyager’s problem.
After failing, B’Elanna, Kim, and Paris go sulk in the mess hall. After one of Neelix’s wonderfully-accidental pep talks the trio has a sudden idea and BAM they figured out how to successfully achieve Warp 10….Hhhmmm…at this point I begin to wonder what the hell is going to go wrong. At a senior meeting Janeway tells Paris that he has the opportunity to join such great names as Orville Wright, Neil Armstrong, and Zefram Cochrane….yeah…like he needed his ego fed. (On a complete side note, I think they changed Janeway’s lipstick color and I like it much better).
Paris does a test run and achieves Warp 10 and when he was reporting back there was an interruption in the com system and Voyager lost contact with Paris. Paris comes back with a whole bunch of data from his trip…to everywhere?? (At this point I decided to quit trying to understand the physics of Warp 10…blah, blah, technobabble…) Next up, Paris can no longer breathe oxygen and he appears to be allergic to water?? He dies, comes back to life with two hearts and a “new” body and then he is a bigger asshole then before….Then he disappears off of the ship with Janeway and when Chakotay finds him they are lizards? Huh? They mated and had babies that they just left behind? What? I am pretty sure creating a new race is against the Prime Directive….
Favorite part: Neelix’s accidental speech and Paris randomly shouting, “Pepperoni”!
Least favorite part: The whole episode. This is definitely the worst Star Trek episode I have seen thus far.
Yup, this one is well hated.
This episode was actually why I pointed out how interesting it was that Janeway's Spirit Guide turned out to be a Lizard and how I never caught that when I watched the Series in First Run, but, I didn't want to point that out at the time, because I didn't want to ruin your "enjoyment" of this episode.
In other episodes you may find plot points or moral dilemmas or Decisions to set your teeth on edge, but, I think this episode is as bad as the Franchise ever gets (Well, The Enterprise Series Finale, that was supposedly "A Valentine to the Fans" ranks right down with this episode too, but, I think you'll find little else in the Entire Franchise this bad)
Ah Threshold... I mean this episode makes Season 1 of Enterprise look like quality sci-fi entertainment.
It took me a week and a half to actually sit down and finish the darn thing! I was at a loss for words after watching this episode. I looked at my husband (who has watched everything Star Trek already) and just shook my head and kept saying, "REALLY??"
Making fun of this episode has become an art form over the years. I'm a proponent of all the nepotism Janeway shows Paris in future episodes is because he rocked her world in this one.
Threshold. Yeah - it has that rep, much of it well deserved. I'll take a contrary position here though: it's actually got some pretty good stuff in it. Am I nuts? Maybe - but hear me out.
Admittedly, the whole metamorphosis/abduction/kizzards thing sucked. No doubt, no argument. It SUCKED ROYALLY. Robbie McNeill and Kate Mulgrew have both said the same thing - the episode was ruined in the last 15 minutes.
BUT. There is some pretty good character stuff for Tom Paris in it, if you can be bothered to look. That big Paris ego Qutluch mentions? Look closely - the episode exposes it quite nicely as a wall built of insecurity and unrealistic outside expectations. (Look at this ep in conjunction with Parturition, too.) Obviously the writers didn't need the slug-transformation to make that point, but it doesn't hurt to see past that aberration for a bit.
Also, the redemption speech at the end of the episode - trying not to spoil here - leads up nicely to Investigations. (I've got a story in the works that draws the connections; one of these days I'll finish it.)
And the Janeway favoritism R. Star mentions? I honestly don't see a lot of evidence of that; still don't after several go-arounds of all VOY episodes. So Janeway likes Paris. She adores Tuvok, Seven, Kes and the Doc too, and Chakotay when he doesn't contradict her. So what? But think of the evident wish KJ has to try and help TP reclaim his almost-blown life, and seen in that context what opportunities she does give him make a heck of a lot of sense. I've been a manager of people for some time now, and I spend a disproportionate amount of time on those that have a great deal of promise but need a bit of a boost to realize it. It's called good management and leadership.
Ultimately, it's all a question of nuancing - it's easy to lose what subtleties there are to be found in a given episode when the writers fail as spectacularly as they did with the lizard diversion at the end. Exorcise that, and Threshold is a not-bad character piece.
Think I'm completely off my rocker? Read Jim Wright's review of the piece on reviewboy.com. At least I know I'm not alone!
Tom Paris turns into a Time Lord?!?!
Of course!!!! She's the first Star Fleet captain with nice hips.
Paris’ pool hall…I like this holodeck scene, but in general, I feel like the actors should always be “dressed to the set” in holodeck scenes. It is an easy way to show us a different look/side/feel to the characters. Meanwhile, in the mess hall Neelix sits with Tuvok to talk about Vulcan holidays, and swears that he will not rest until he gets Tuvok to smile… I do love the interactions with Neelix and Tuvok. Although, I have not decided if I feel like it is touching that Neelix calls Tuvok Mr. Vulcan or if it is unintentionally degrading…Oh, and just before the opener ends there is a random dead guy. Not a bad opening, Paris gets to gamble, Neelix gets to give one of his spunky “pep” talks to a fixed Tuvok, and there is a mystery surrounding a burned body.
After the opening we find that Crewman Darwin (aptly named) was murdered. (Speaking of the Doctor, I don’t feel like Kes has had enough airtime lately). Tuvok begins to investigate the murder. He questions Crewman Sudor, and later Sudor’s DNA was matched with the crime scene. After admitting to the crime Sudor’s only offering for motive was that he did not like the way Crewman Darwin looked at him. After this comment, Tuvok actually looked puzzled! He could not understand the logic of the crime. In my own macabre way I kind of hoped Sudor killed him just to to drive Tuvok nuts! Tuvok wants to mind meld with Sudor in order to fully understand the crime.
They jump to the holodeck scene where Paris is basically running his own odds room! Every day they gamble on a set of numbers and if no one hits only the house wins!! What an Entrepreneur!
Tuvok explains the effects of the meld to Janeway, but I wish that they showed the mind meld, clips of memory, etc. Tuvok tells Janeway that he wants to execute Sudor because Sudor is prepared for that, but Janeway put her foot down and insisted that they put maximum security around his quarters instead.
Why did Chakotay put a stop to Paris’ gambling? Who cares if people want to put up one of their rations? It is an outlet for them, something fun and maybe even a little thrilling for them for a couple of minutes each day. Yeah, Paris is racking in the extra rations, but he was the entrepreneur of the enterprise!
Tuvok is unquestionably affected by the mind meld and excuses himself of duty. When Janeway enters his room to check on him he was counting the numerous ways he knew how to kill a person. He is acting like a cornered dog ready to pounce, and Janeway is trying to coax him into seeing the doctor…why not beam him to a shielded area in sickbay rather than risking Tuvok’s and Janeway’s safety?
I do love the speech Tuvok gives the Captain when he is crazed! We even get to see him smile when he tells Janeway to reduce the force field so he can kill Sudor! Tuvok yelled!!! What a great episode for Tim Russ to break from his character and get to act a little crazy. I do like episodes where the characters undergo some changes, etc. that allow for them to act differently than their regular character!
Favorite part: When Neelix sticks his finger into Tuvok’s mouth and pulls his lip back to try and make him smile…even though it was a holodeck scene that ended with Tuvok killing Neelix it made me smile!! I really enjoyed this episode. It flowed well and Russ did a remarkable acting job.
Least favorite part: That Paris’ gambling gambit was closed down!
Meld... Yeah just what was Tuvok thinking during this one? I'm going to join minds with a murderous pyschopath to figure out why he's driven into a homocidal rage over not liking a look. Wow, that didn't end well? Who could have seen that one coming?
I do like how Tuvok contempteously mocks Janeway's lack of punishing Suder. I mean telling a murderer the equivilent of "go to your room" is a bit... lacking. Janeway's speechifing against capital punishment will of course come back to mock her in future episodes too. Suder will be back too... I'm sure that will end well.
Yeah, I really don't get what Paris was doing wrong in this, beyond taking advantage of a bunch of people who just don't know better. Chakotay barely gets any screen time as is, now he's coming across as a petty mall cop.
Tuvok killing the Neelix hologram was my favorite part. Neelix is a jerk.
Let us all watch it again.
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