Monarchy within the Federation.

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Cmdr.Druss, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    Pretty sure there are more requirements then that. A Stalinist dictatorship would not have a caste system, but I do think a poor civil rights record in general would be frowned upon by the Federation.

    I doubt the Cardassian Union would be allowed into the Federation, when it was still a military dictatorship. As seen with "The Drumhead" the Federation has some Bill or Charter of Rights and I think a government that hasn't willing to adopt those rights wouldn't be allowed in.
     
  2. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Federation's rules and morals are whatever they say in that moment to make themselves look good politically and get what they want. It's that simple. The disparity in treatment between Bajor and Ardana is an excellent example of that.
     
  3. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There does seem to be a pretty thin line between 'Respecting the traditions of another culture' and tolerating atrocities. The Federation didn't intervene on Bajor but they sure showed up and offered their support once the Bajorans had already won.

    But I wouldn't be as cynical about this as you, Ghemor. The Federation would not openly tolerate slavery or systems where people are treated as unequal totally based on where they were born. There are several cases where they ignore their political best interest based on values.
     
  4. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    An excellent point. How would the Federation handle a cast based system based on biological differences such as the Tholians? What about a psionic hive mind where the strongest psi gets you a stronger vote within the group mind? We know the Federation has been referred to as a democracy but we don't know enough about it's structure to determine if it's just the council or if there's a larger body like the General Assembly of the UN. What we saw in TVH may be the equivalent of the UN Security Council. We did see representatives of the founding races but not a lot of others. It could be that The founders have a veto and essentially run things with other planets having a voice and a vote but no veto power. We don't even know how the representatives are chosen. T'Pau was said to have turned down a seat. It sounds like she was essentially appointed, not elected unless Vulcan has write in candidates. It would be illogical to select someone without knowing if they would accept.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd rather think the key difference here would be found in a basic element of representative democracy: you can only have an influence during elections, not between them. Ardana was already a member; Bajor was undergoing a selection process. Only the latter situation would allow for the sort of blackmail that makes democracy work.

    Spock apparently thought of that situation as a recent development once informed of it, and nothing in the episode indicated otherwise, either.

    So perhaps the other situation, the general dissatisfaction of the Troglytes in their lot, is also a recent development? And by extension, perhaps the zenite gas exposure and its related woes are new things, too. Possibly there was less mining previously; possibly the demand for zenite specifically only emerged recently, and old mining procedures that used to be perfectly safe for the Troglytes did not work on the new material at all.

    Note that zenite is only found on Ardana and nowhere else - yet the Stratosians keep none of the stuff in stock! It is only mined as a direct response to the crisis on Merak II, apparently. Possibly this is the very first time it has been mined at all (or, to acknowledge the Federation knowledge about the potency of zenite, the second or third time, but the previous times were long, long ago), and the Merak crisis is the root cause of the sudden suffering of the Troglytes.

    How sudden, we don't know. The Merak crisis need not have cropped up overnight, and the fight against the plague may have lasted for years already, the zenite mining having been going on for months, and Kirk's courier mission is a carefully scheduled rather than unanticipated one (which is why even the Troglytes are so well informed about it).

    Sure, Plasus speaks of "centuries of evolution" having proven that the Trogytes have no potential and deserve no better. But Plasus might be speaking the objective truth there, the Troglytes indeed being a "lower life form" - yet their suffering might still be a very recent thing, a development Plasus' regime is taking joyful advantage of. The preceding High Advisor, a few years back, might not have enjoyed the circumstances yet.

    Troglyte life may have been quite idyllic back when Kirk and Spock previously visited this planet... And since the teaser indicates that high warp is called for to reach Ardana, and since Spock has been unable to revisit despite his desire to do so, we could assume outsiders from the Federation heartlands seldom visit Ardana. Hell, outsiders seldom visited Deneva, either - an entire year of complete silence was not considered worth checking up on! Quite possibly, we are only seeing a particularly repulsive Stratosian at the office of High Advisor at a particularly dire moment in Ardanan history, and the two-layer societal structure is otherwise a palatable one by general UFP standards.

    For all we know, Ardana is one. Zenite might simply exaggerate an already existing difference between the two population groups, and this "natural" difference (without zenite influence) might also be but the result of different living conditions, nutrition etc., but that doesn't mean that the biological differences would be any less real - or that the UFP would be obligated to eliminate them by artificial means, such as by forcing every Ardanan on an identical diet.

    Just as an aside, the one-city nature of the planet sort of suggests that this is actually a colony (possibly a human one from Earth) that simply has a few centuries of history of isolation behind it, rather than an indigenous society on a planet possessing a full, natural ecosystem. Plasus quoting "centuries of evolution" as opposed to "millions of years" is suggestive as well... But this doesn't mean that every colonist would be obligated to an identical lifestyle or biology.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, really? They tolerate it every day they call the Klingons their most valued allies yet fail completely to call the Klingons out on the conquests and enslavements that they carry out.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    To be fair, we never really hear of Klingon conquests or enslavements. Either our heroes thwart such Klingon plans, or the Klingons oppress peoples the UFP wants oppressed as well, such as the Dominion or the Cardassians.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    kuvesa tokhesa - "I serve willingly." A willing servitor. The Federation may translate Kuve as slave but the Klingons seem to have a more nuanced version. The conquered planets serve the Empire. If they rebell then action would be taken against them. Kor seemed willing to let the Organians continue to live much as they had as long as they behaved themselves. He on;y ordered the group of hostages killed after Kirk & Spock decided that the Organians shouldn't be able to decide for themselves how to deal with the Klingon occupation. It's not like Kor beamed down and started slaughtering people just to make a point.

    And

    Basically, don't make waves. Harsh by human standards but nor mad dog crazy either. How do you think the Afghans and Iraqis were treated just after the war started? I'm sure there were various regulations put in place as well.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yet the thing is, there are no examples of this really happening. Klingon designs on Organia were thwarted. Krios was never indicated to be anything but a Klingon colony. No members of species other than the "one and only" Klingons ever served aboard Klingon ships or installations (evident now that the forehead thing was finally sorted out). Etc.

    The Son'a had subjugated races in their servitude. The Grand Nagus had alien servants. Kirk had an alien lackey, Picard had dozens at least. The Klingons? They only ever served each other! And aliens within the Empire only served prison sentences...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. neozeks

    neozeks Captain Captain

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    Who says they fail to call them out? They pretty clearly condemned the Klingon invasion of Cardassia. For all we know, the Federation is working very hard to change the Klingons' ways through diplomacy, cultural influence and "soft power". (Besides, the original point was that they wouldn't tolerate it within the Federation.)
     
  11. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    Why would they have their subject races serving on their ships, particularly their warships? Better to keep the trapped on their planets where they can't cause trouble. Even if they served on a freighter would the Klingons trust a subject race with a projectile that could be crashed into a planet at near lightspeed and is loaded with antimatter? Even an unarmed starship is extraordinarily dangerous. Better to have lower ranked Klingons do the hauling and leave the conquered races to do the hewing and farming and mining.

    Why did we never see them? Because they live a boring existence.
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The way it was said, T'Pau turning down the seat was a unpresidented move. More than her simply being offered the seat and saying no thanks. if only a select few from the general assemblage are offered seat on the upper council, with the original founders having the offer as a given, then T'Pau's refusial to move from the general assemblage up to the upper council might have been shocking. Maybe the only time Vulcan was never on the upper council in the Federation's history.

    Once Ardana was in, there wouldn't have been much the Federation could do, especially if the individual members are in fact sovereign entities. Ultimately the only thing the Federation could do is expell Ardana. The same thing with Bajor, if admitted with a caste system in place, there's nothing the Federation could do after the admission was a done deal, except expell them.

    Or only amongst the Disrupter group and their little band of supporters. The Disrupters could be a minority political movement.

    Extracting zenite by way of mining using mine shafts might be a new method. If up until resently, zenite was extracted though open pits and strip mining (in the open air) the problem with the gas would not have been a problem.

    The Trogs' who work the shafts underground might have been considered by the majority of the above ground Trogs' as the lowest of the low, the dreggs of the larger Trog' society.

    Perhaps it has a short shelf life. Once out of the ground it "decays."

    :)
     
  13. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I confess to being puzzled that 23rd Century Ardana is being held against the 24th Century Federation vis a vis Bajor. The entire point of "The Cloud Minders" was that the Federation was going to force Ardana to change, and 103 years passed between TOS Season Three and DSN Season Four. For all we know, the Federation Charter was amended to ban caste-based discrimination precisely because of Ardana.

    ETA:

    There is no evidence whatsoever that the Federation has a bicameral legislature. Canonically, there is the Federation Council, the Federation President, the Federation Supreme Court, and the President's Cabinet. That's it.

    Actually, full sovereignty on the part of Federation Members is the only way there could be "not much" the Federation could do. If the Federation itself, however, is the sovereign, then the Federation would have plenty of options for forcing Ardana to change. Just ask the Southern states that were forced to abandon Jim Crow what a federal government can force from its member polities.
     
  14. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There's not the slightest suggestion in the episode's dialog
    that the Federation was going to force a change.

    Kirk mildly offers mediation, nothing more. And that's rebuffed.
     
  15. USS Einstein

    USS Einstein Captain Captain

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    Does the Andorian Empire have an emperor in the Federation?

    There is a question that might be interesting - if they don't, it might indicate that the Federation imposes it's ideas on member worlds, if they do, it might indicate that the Federation's structure is very loose, and member worlds are allowed to more or less do what they want, short of outright oppression.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No.
     
  17. USS Einstein

    USS Einstein Captain Captain

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    Well, books are non-canon obviously, but nice mention ;)
     
  18. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    But either way, the books make it clear that the Andorian Empire is a constitutional monarchy where real power falls to the democratically elected Parliament Andoria, which itself elects the head of government, the Presider.

    This is broadly consistent with ENT, wherein the Aenar mention having been in contact with the "Andorian Chancellor."

    So the Andorian head of government is canonically called a Chancellor in the 22nd Century, and called a Presider in the novels set in the 24th Century. Either way, though, it's just a fancy term for "prime minister;" the Andorian Empire is a constitutional monarchy.
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^ Once the Andorian scientists identified the brain wave pattern, does it make sense that the high mucky mucky of the Andorian State would personally contact a city of two thousand to tell them John and Shran will be paying a visit?

    Lissan: "I know your name because the Andorian Chancellor contacted us."

    "Andorian Chancellor" would more likely be analogous to a upper level administrator, or maybe a cabinet secretary.

    The term "Empire" would suggest a single supreme authority, a emperor, empress or other monarch.

    :mallory:
     
  20. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I think it does. The Aenar weren't part of the Andorian polity; they were a sovereign nation, and since they needed to be contacted in order to resolve an interstellar crisis, it's perfectly plausible that the Andorian head of government may have sent an official communication.