Monarchy within the Federation.

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Cmdr.Druss, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Cmdr.Druss

    Cmdr.Druss Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I've been wondering recently whether todays monarchies survived in the future, and what function they hold. Purely ceremonial? Do the royalty serve in Starfleet? Were they wiped out during WW3?
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There was a reference to a "Vulcan Princess" in one of the movies.

    And I'm not sure, but Malcolm Reed may have said that Britain still had a "Royal" navy. Suggesting that Kings and Queens were still the heads of state in Britain.



    :)
     
  3. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    I don't see that it would be a problem as long as the government they headed (or figureheaded) was still run as a democracy.
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The planet Troyius (sp?) seemed to possess a ruling royal system, if it were to become a Federation member, it could do so with it's governmental system intact.

    Why would they have to become a democracy just to join?

    If planet Saudi Arabia, or planet China joined the Federation, they obviously wouldn't be democracies. Up until a few centuries ago, planet Hawaii had a ruling King (in the 24th century) would they, with their royal system be excluded?

    For all we know, in the 24th century only a few dozen of the Federation's 150+ members are democracies.


    :)
     
  5. Darkwing

    Darkwing Commodore Commodore

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    As long as they meet the civil rights requirements and don't have abhorrent practices, then they can become members, IMO. Assuming they have warp comms or warp drive, of course.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Well, we never really learn that one'd need to have warp in order to be a member, or a trade partner or whatnot. Or that one'd need to have specific civil rights or steer clear of abhorrent practices; Vulcans have duels to death at least.

    Or then not, as I could well see an organization preferring to keep "Royal" in the title well past the date monarchy expired. Unless it expired by going particularly sour.

    In any case, that was before even the era of ENT; Reed's dad served in said organization, but was supposedly retired by the time of the televised adventures already. Our evidence for a (British? Australian? Dutch? Indian? Malesian? South Italian? Texan?) Royal Navy thus apparently predates even the final unification of Earth in 2150.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There are only two requirements for Federation membership: One world government, and no caste-based discrimination. A world that is ruled by a monarchy would qualify, as long as it satisfied those two things.
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Malcolm said that went he was considering his future, it was between Starfleet and the British ("Royal?") Navy.

    I sometimes compare jet engines on modern Earth, to the warp drive in the future Federation. Most nations on Earth have jet aircraft, but only a few nations actually build the engines. The majority of nations import their jets.

    If a species' culture and society was the equal to 24th century Earth in every way, except they lacked an indigenous warp drive, why would they not be able to just purchase them from a different species that produced them?

    If the culture's various practices were too abhorrent, likely no, they wouldn't be invited into the inner circle. But if each of the Federation's founding members possessed some oddity, and the follow-on members also brought their own personality traits to the mix, then mildly "abhorrent practices" could be the Federation norm.

    Alien Nation: "Your mother breeds out of season."

    What constitutes a "civil right" probably varies widely among the Federation's members.

    Wasn't that just a preference? The Federation in one TNG episode was considering a world for membership with at least two separate nations on it.

    :mallory:
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    But his future was well in the show's past: he had made the decision already, long enough ago that he now was a Lieutenant in Starfleet.

    ...But apparently for the very first time. So the "preference" would have rather deep roots.

    In any case, it seemed the Federation was considering making the Kes members while leaving the Prytt outside the UFP, despite the two sharing a planet. Essentially, they'd still be doing the "single government for single member" thing there.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. neozeks

    neozeks Captain Captain

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    Those are only the two we heard about on screen. Nothing says they are the only requirements. (Though to make clear, I agree the Federation would have no problems with constitutional democratic monarchies.)
     
  11. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Until we hear about more onscreen, then by definition those ARE the only requirements.
     
  12. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    The no caste based discrimination perquisite is post TOS though. Ardana in The Cloud Minders defiantly had a caste based system and it was very discriminatory yet the planet was a Federation member. Kirk didn't tell them that they had to give up the caste system, just that they had to live up to their Federation obligations and provide the zenite. For all we know the Troglytes were simply provided with filter masks and the caste system remained essentially intact.

    If the Federation had admitted Ardana and yet was unaware of the caste system then they'd be very lax about enforcing any sort of membership requirements.
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The difference between Ardana and Bajor could have been that Bajor's caste system would seem to have been religious based. Not so with Ardana.

    Also the argument could be made that what Ardana had was a class system, and not a caste system.

    :)
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    What we know about opposition to caste systems is this specific phrase by Sisko:

    Sure, Bajor's system or the discrimination practiced within it might be of a particularly damning type. But Sisko makes it appear more generic than that, that is, all discrimination that is based on caste is frowned upon in the UFP. Caste systems that don't discriminate may be fine, though. How about a species of sentient termites joining? Making the workers do all the peacetime work and the soldiers do all the fighting would probably not count as discrimination if the very biology of the species makes such an arrangement the most comfortable one.

    Certainly exotic biologies are acceptable for UFP members, even if the most exotic member species remain offscreen; but even purely cultural quirks are tolerated, and the UFP accepts that certain Vulcan males boss around their designated females and call it "tradition". Makes it highly doubtful that the Ferengi should be required to alter their sexist ways, either, in case they filed an application.

    Then again, the phrasing doesn't yet establish that an applicant need be 100% compliant and compatible with the UFP Charter at the moment of filing the application. Perhaps there is room for adaptation later on - much as in "Rapture" where the absorption of the Militia into Starfleet is said to be an exercise for the time following approval of membership.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sisko doesn't say that the Federation Charter prohibits caste-based systems, but specifically caste-based discrimination.

    So, if the Federation doesn't consider your particular castes to be discriminatory (because they need your zenite), then you can have castes in your society all you want.
     
  16. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree with that, though I would assume that horrible sentient rights abuses would also disqualify them.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Did anyone even know about the situation with the Troglytes until Kirk and crew showed up there?
     
  18. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I think in this context, the difference between a caste system and a class system is that Bajor's D'jarra system was based solely on what your family name was. Family name is Kira? Congratulations, you're an artisan. Can't sculpt worth shit? Not my problem.

    A Class system would imply that you are capable of moving up and down between the classes based on your level education or earned wealth, and that movement between classes is not restricted. Can't sculpt worth shit? Better find something else to do, because you're not making it in this society as an artist.
     
  19. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    The South shall rise again. :klingon:

    And of course, I mean the Italian South.

    ;)
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Spock knew of their existence. The situation with the group called "The Disruptors" seemed to be a surprise

    It also implies that you can move sideways within your own class, something as I understand it you can't do with a caste system.

    Droxine said that the Troglytes did the mining, but also they tilled the soil. So they're not all miners, some are farmers. If a young person has the option of farming, mining or some other occupation, then there is no caste system. At least not for them. And while a member of the aristocracy might have invented the anti-gravity devise that holds Stratos in the sky, I doubt the aristocracy actually built the city. The Troglytes, or different "middle class" professional class?