Miranda Class VS Refit Constitution class round 2

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by TheSubCommander, May 30, 2013.

  1. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    I'm fairly sure onscreen evidence shows that the Constitution Mk II class has 4 topedeo launchers. I'm sure we saw a sign saying TORP 4
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We saw signs saying "Torp Bay 2" and "Torp Bay 4" being used on different shots of the same set in ST2, yes. But we never learned how many Torp Bays it takes to keep one torpedo tube supplied.

    Remarkably, the set is a two-level one, and even though you need TARDIS technology here, it's apparently supposed to be but one half of a pair, each coinciding with a torpedo tube; you could explain Torp Bays 1-4 right there and then, with two upper and two lower bays. But confusingly, Kirk originally visits the portside lower bay, with signage Torp Bay 2; Khan subsequently devastates the port side of the neck; and Spock is buried from a facility whose lower level still reads Torp Bay 2, which leads to him being ejected from the starboard tube.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Not sure the 4 torpedo thing can be taken seriously. Otherwise we have to ignore the ship's model itself.
     
  4. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Two possibilites, there are two aft torpedeo bays on the constitution Mk II class, that are hdden behind a panel say under the shuttlebay, or that the forward firing ones have 4 tubes 2 of which are fed from the bottom rather than the top.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or there are just two torpedo tubes, but at least four bays dedicated to the storage of torpedoes. Not combining the storage system into one big warehouse helps contain damage, just as in modern naval warfare. But any of the bays can send a torpedo to either of the tubes.

    Or there is just one torpedo bay, which can be in various states of readiness. 2 is a relatively low one, suited for inspections and burials, while 1 and 0 would mean almost total inactivity; 4 means battle readiness. Thus, the sign flashes from 2 to 4 when the ship goes to battle.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    OR: someone in the production erred and should not have put a "4" in there.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    But it's there so it has to be considered part of the Enterprise's armaments.
     
  8. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Well it's a clear contradiction with the physical model. Since we see the model a whole lot more, I know which of the two I ignore.

    I mean, when you watch fiction you'll get contradictions like that. Sometimes it's best to just tell yourself it's a contradiction, rather than try to make it fit when it doesn't.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There's no explicit contradiction there. The movie makes it clear that no single Torp Bay is connected to a specific torpedo tube; that is, Torp Bay 2 feeds both port and starboard tubes. Thus, there is no onscreen reason to think that the number of Torp Bays and the number of torpedo tubes would be related in any specific way.

    If the ship has more than the two visible torpedo tubes, though, then one must wonder why these would be both invisible and unusable.

    I mean, in TOS, all torpedo tubes were invisible - but here two of the lot very clearly are not! Why would there be inequality in visibility? Why should some tubes deserve cover plates when these two do not?

    Or are we speaking of weapons of differing calibers, perhaps? The ship does have visible features suited for firing smaller torpedoes - say, the four indentations on the back of the secondary hull, never seen doing anything much (the designer apparently intended these to be thrusters or vents of some sort, but no such thing was established on screen).

    OTOH, TOS only ever showed torpedoes being fired forward, even though ENT showed that a ship nearly identical to Kirk's had aft tubes as well. If Kirk in TOS occasionally decided not to use his most advantageous weapons (e.g. in firing the over-the-shoulder shot in "The Changeling" from a bow tube), certainly he has the right to refrain from using his hidden tubes in the movies as well.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    The docking port directly connects to the torpedo bay, and there is no space for a second one beside it. I have no idea how the TWOK team envisioned this. It's a mess.

    I'll say. Why would two tubes be visible and the others not ?

    OR they made a mistake in TWOK.
     
  11. doylem1

    doylem1 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    i always though the Miranda was to the Constitution what the Nebula was to the Galaxy, Both share the same technology but Miranda/Nebula are packed into a smaller volume.

    I'd say tactically both the Reliant and Enterprise armaments wise were about equal. The deciding factor is hull/armour, In a slugfest between these 2 ships i think it comes down to who can take the most punishment. I'd say in a fair fight the Constitution takes it. But with some major battle damage to the point of being mothballed shortly afterwards.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The thing is, combat qualifications in Star Trek are all invisible. We can't tell by looking which ship has stronger shields, more powerful phasers or faster warp or impulse engines. Maneuverability is not visible, either, and a big ship might well out-turn a small one.

    We can count the number of weapons ports, but this has never been a factor in Star Trek, as no ship ever fires a "broadside" - a very low percentage of the guns firing is always plenty enough.

    But in ST2:TWoK, such things should not matter. It's a battle of wits, Kirk vs. Khan, and it would make dramatic sense for the ships to start out more or less even, then to suffer damage, and then be repaired to again be more or less even - but Kirk's repairs are more clever, and with his "partial main power" he can escape Genesis while with Khan's "full auxiliary power" he would have been dead. Any "built-in" difference between the ships would be detrimental to the plot.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Right. Unless the show tells you these things, we're speculating. Informed speculation, sometimes, but speculation nonetheless.
     
  14. Bow

    Bow Cadet Newbie

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    The USS Reliant which is a Miranda Class (Wrath of Khan) is a lot more heavily armed than a Connie. It not only has the same phasers on the saucer section as the Enterprise but it also had external phaser pulse cannons and both fwd and aft firing photon torpedoes on the exterior pylon where the Enterprise only had fwd torpedo bays. They both had spec 7 main phasers on the saucer section so they were even there so if their shields were comparable (and they should be) then the Reliant (Miranda Class) should take out a Connie as the Reliant can fire both phasers and torpedoes both fwd and aft and the Enterprise cannot.

    Someone on here said the Reliant only carried about 20 crew members, thats not true, thats about how many Khan had in his group on the Reliant but the Reliants normal crew was rated at about 240 officers and enlisted.

    I'm new here but i've been a Trekie a long time, I watched the original ST with Shatner, Nimoy when it originaly aired on tv.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I always said that if any more torpedo launchers were needed, a few panels somewhere would slide open, exposing new launchers as needed - just like they did in Into Darkness.