Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Kenny, May 17, 2012.

  1. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    We’ll probably never know for sure? All we know is that “Constitution” was one of the Enterprise’s sister ships listed in TMoST, and that “STAR SHIP MK IX/01 CONSTITUTION CLASS” was on the phaser schematic that Scotty was viewing in "The Trouble with Tribbles". Trimble probably just put two and two together and drew the obvious conclusion? But as to whom in the production hierarchy was responsible for Constitution-class on the schematic; it was probably Jefferies, since he was in charge of the art department.
     
  2. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    It's true that Khan's schematic isn't clear enough to make much sense of it onscreen. It's too far away from the camera to make out more than the illustration. I can't find the screencap on TrekCore from "Trouble" for comparison, so it's possible that it was the same schematic reused. But I don't recall at what point in the ep Scotty is looking at it.
     
  3. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    After Captain Kirk speaks with Captain Koloth in GM Lurry's office, the Federation captain is seen walking into a rec room aboard the USS Enterprise. CE Scotty is sitting at a table examining an image on the monitor.

    Kirk: Another technical journey, Scotty?
    Scott: Aye.
    Kirk: Don't you ever relax?
    Scott: I am relaxing.

    The technical journal is the image in question.

    Here is the image from TrekCore.org:

    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x15/TOS_2x13_TheTroubleWithTribbles0156-Trekpulse.jpg

    Here is the technical journal from Memory Alpha:

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/_...n/images/1/16/Constitution_primary_phaser.jpg

    Here is the clearest image of the technical manual from "Space Seed":

    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x22/Space_Seed_127.JPG

    The two technical manuals, or journals, are not the same.
     
  4. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^ This might help...http://www.trekplace.com/article10.html ... although the phaser schematic is here incorrectly attributed to "Space Seed" rather than “tribbles”. The schematic used for “Space Seed” appears to have been part of an actual airplane schematic?

    Memory alpha also incorrectly attributes the phaser schematic to "Space Seed", as do several other sites! They really need to correct and update this info because it's causing a lot of confusion.
     
  5. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    Thanks. :) It's entirely possible of course that the term "Constitution Class" does exist on the Khan schematic, but unless there's a larger and clearer version available somewhere, I'm not sure it can be judged either way.
     
  6. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just FYI, GSchnitzer replied to a question in the topic Doomsday Machine Question-What Does Decker Exclaim? over in the Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series topic about how the shooting script describes the Constellation. Here's his reply:
    Which pretty conclusively indicates that the ship was supposed to be the same class as the Enterprise, not some other model, despite the registry or the differences in the AMT kit.
     
  7. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    The Making of Star Trek classifies the USS Enterprise as an Enterprise-type starship that has been in service for fifty years.

    The script for the episode "The Doomsday Machine" classifies the USS Constellation as an Enterprise-class starship.

    A sign in the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan classifies the USS Enterprise as an Enterprise-class starship.

    Then, starting in the movie Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, there is the first canonical reference to the USS Enterprise as a Constititution-class starship. This reference is from the Star Fleet Technical Manual, a fandom publication. Also, in fandom, we have the Greg Jein article and the Star Trek Concordance which classify the Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship. Greg Jein bases his assumption on a technical journal that may have been the depiction of another starship class's phasers, and it's not clear where Bjo Trimble got her assumption from.

    Then in 1987, with the episode "The Naked Now", there is the first time when a character thru dialog classifies the USS Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship.

    I would say that this is an example where fandom trumped canon, and the class of the ship changed because the people involved in ST: TNG were more familiar with the literature produced by the fans than that produced by the production team behind the original series.
     
  8. Kenny

    Kenny Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Actually, I think "Starship class" was consistently used in TOS, not "Enterprise class".

    It appears on the Enterprise bridge dedication plaque and on the Jefferies drawings used in "Elaan of Troyus", as well as in dialogue every time a ship that looks like the Enterprise is shown on screen ("Doomsday Machine", "Ultimate Computer", etc.).

    I was under the impression that "Enterprise class" only appears once in The Making of Star Trek, right under a sentence where Starship class is also used, and then in ST:TMP.

    "Starship class" was canon during TOS, and "Constitution class" didn't come about until the mid-1970's among fans when Franz Joseph's Blueprints came out the same year Greg Jein's "Jonathan Doe Starship" essay was published.

    But I don't have a first edition (I mean the fan-produced mimeographed edition, not the later Ballantine edition) of Bjo Trimble's Concordance and so I might be wrong about the timetable for the "Constitution class".
     
  9. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    Our old friend Capt April asked me to post this here.

    [​IMG]

    It's the first ever reference to the Constitution Class, published in the 1968 ST Concordance.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  10. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    I am amused by the description provided in the Concordance.
    I think these two are winners.

    "...somewhat larger than a 20th century naval battleship..."

    "...a rear hangar deck large enough to contain a whole fleet of 20th century jet liners..."

    The largest battleship was the Japanese battleship Yamato with a length of 263 meters (862 ft 10 inches). However, a production sketch from TOS shows the USS Enterprise in comparison to the aircraft carrier Enterprise (CVA-65). The carrier had a length of 342 meters (1,123 ft.)

    I wonder what jet liners WGIII had in mind when writing that line, and how many liners constitute a fleet. By 1968, these jet liners were in operation:

    * BAC One-Eleven
    * Boeing 707
    * Boeing 727
    * Convair 880
    * de Havilland Comet
    * Douglas DC-8
    * Hawker Siddeley Trident
    * Ilyushin IL-62
    * McDonnell Douglas DC-9
    * Sud Aviation Caravelle
    * Tupolev Tu-104
    * Tupolev Tu-154
    * Vickers VC10

    There is a great amount of variety in that list with a wide range in the length of the body, length from wingtip to wingtip, and height.

    Who was WGIII? What was his connection, if any, to the production office at Star Trek?

    Was the Concordance, First Edition, released before or after The Making of Star Trek which was published by Ballantine in September 1968?
     
  11. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^
    My guess is that WGIII stands for Writer's Guide revision 3 and TY is for Tomorrow is Yesterday.
    However, the info is a bit different in the Writer's Guide reveision 3, dated April 17, 1967:

     
  12. Kenny

    Kenny Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Thanks for the scan from the 1968 Concordance. I've never actually seen one of those.

    What's interesting is that just one year separates the Concordance from the Writer's Guide, and that fans have already decided to break from the doctrine that the Enterprise is a "Starship class" vessel as canonically stated in the series and in official materials from the producers.

    How did they come to this conclusion? I wonder if the "Trouble With Tribbles" phaser diagram was already known to fans, and if so, how?

    I love this old fan stuff.

    But I think Bjo Trimble might get an "F" for plagiarism, however. :)
     
  13. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think everyone is missing the forest for the trees, or maybe missing the tree for the forest? Anywho as I said earlier...

    "All we know is that “Constitution” was one of the Enterprise’s sister ships listed in TMoST, and that “STAR SHIP MK IX/01 CONSTITUTION CLASS” was on the phaser schematic that Scotty was viewing in "The Trouble with Tribbles". Trimble probably just put two and two together and drew the obvious conclusion?"

    There is no contradiction between fandom and canon here, "starship class" and star ship MK IX/01 (Constitution) class are synonymous, and one is merely the abbreviation of the other. Both merely designate a capital ship of the line.

    As for "Constitution", since it's one of the (12) ships like the Enterprise (i.e. Enterprise class, so to speak) given in "The Making of Star Trek" (based on intra office memos) it's clear beyond a reasonable doubt that the phaser diagram is depicting phasers for ships like the Enterprise and her sisters, and that those in the production intended this to be so.

    In brief, “STAR SHIP MK IX/01 CONSTITUTION CLASS” is the complete and correct designation for which "Starship class" and “Constitution class” are both interchangeable shorthand for.
     
  14. Albertese

    Albertese Commodore Commodore

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    I really like this.

    Now what do those components break down into? I would pronounce "MK" as "mark"... would I be right to do so? Maybe "make?" Maybe just "em-kay?" What is MK IX? What would MK VIII be? Does MK IX/01 refer to the whole class, some subclass or specifically to NCC-1701? Maybe the 17 in the registry number is an even shorter shorthand for "MK IX"...

    Food for thought...

    --Alex
     
  15. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Tin Man,

    I believe you are making an assumption. I believe you are making the same mistake that Greg Jein did in his article for T-Negative.

    The intraoffice memos listed at least three different lists of starship. The Constitution was on at least one of these memos. The production staff were going on memory for the named ships, and were identifying each of the named starships to the Enterprise-type. The production staff had to name 13 starships that were like the Enterprise, and they had 11 names established by the episodes to work with. The production staff missed one ship - the USS Carolina - but this was understandable. This starship was mentioned very briefly in the episode "Friday's Child". So they had to fill in the gaps. The Constitution was selected because of historical importance - the USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides"). The phaser diagram wasn't mentioned in the book, and wasn't included in the illustrations provided with the book.

    The chronology is this:

    April 17, 1967 - 3rd Edition of Writer's Guide is published
    * The USS Enterprise is classified as a "Starship Class" vessel.

    Oct. 10, 1967 - "The Doomsday Machine" aired
    * In the script for this episode, the Enterprise and her sister ship, the Constellation, are classified as Enterprise-class starships.

    Dec. 19, 1967 - "The Trouble with Tribbles" aired
    * This is the first mention of a Constitution-class starship. There is no canonical connection between the Enterprise and this class of ship.

    Sept. 1968 - "The Making of Star Trek" is published
    * In this book, the Enterprise is classified as an Enterprise-type starship. A list of sister ships is included in this book.

    Sometime in 1968 - The first edition of the "Star Trek Concordance" is published as a private product (fanzine) for fans.
    * In this book, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship.

    April 1973 - "The Case of Jonathan Doe Starship" is published in the fanzine T-Negative Nr. 27.
    * In this article, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship. This is the first time that an effort is made, afaik, to link the registries seen in "Court Martial" to the list of starships first mentioned in "The Making of Star Trek". This is also the first time, afaik, that a connection is made between the phaser diagram first seen in "The Trouble with Tribbles" and the Enterprise.

    April 1975 - "Star Trek Blueprints" is published by Ballantine.
    * In this set of blueprints, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship.

    November 1, 1975 - The "Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual" is published by Ballantine.
    * In this book, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship.

    June 2, 1977 - The "Star Trek Concordance" is published by Ballantine for a wider audience.

    June 4, 1982 - "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" is released.
    * In this film, the Enterprise is classified as a Enterprise-class starship.

    June 1, 1984 - "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" is released.
    * In this film, there is a diagram which classifies the Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship. The diagram is either from the Star Trek Blueprints or the Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual.

    October 5, 1987 - Lt. Cmdr. Data classifies the Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship in the episode "The Naked Now".
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  16. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the episode merely calls out the ship as the USS Carolina and never identifies it as a "starship".
     
  17. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    adding to the conundrum is this bit of dialog suggesting a letter based classification for starships:
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    All sorts of possibilities there, besides retroactively deciding that Starfleet in the 2260s used ENT-era transport ships for training of cadets. Perhaps starship classes fall into further categories designated with letters (possibly by mission - perhaps J stands for training ships?), and "Class J" encompasses the Ranger, Kearsarge and Miranda classes, with Pike serving on one of the older ones (which happens to be a Ranger, but nobody cares)? Or perhaps Class J refers to a class of starships where each ship has a name beginning with J, just like with the Royal Navy R class battleships? Or perhaps "Class J" is outdated terminology, but the aged Mendez insists on using it, even if yielding to calling his terminology "old" for the benefit of whippersnappers like Kirk?

    In the end, though, it's clear that Starfleet operates a reasonably wide variety of ship types it officially considers "starships", even back in the time of TOS. Or at least that some of the wide variety of types operated by Starfleet at various times are at the time of TOS being considered "starships", even if such a thing perhaps is a bit of a "retcon" for vessels like the older Valiant or the Archon. None of which needs to contradict the idea that starships are a special and exalted category among the various spaceships operated by Starfleet.

    ...It should also be rather clear that none of the terminology was carefully thought out by a collective of writers, much less affected by the considerations of the art department. It just sorta happened.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    ^^^ And then there is Merek's statement (in Bread & Circuses) about the glaring differentiation of power and status between being a commander of a spaceship and that of a starship. The writers back then seemed to view the designation as more than just a throw-away descriptive word --- almost as if the class name of the Enterprise actually was simply "Starship Class", just like it says on the bridge plaque (surprised nobody has mentioned that yet, unless I missed it), as opposed to "Constitution Class", "Enterprise Class", "Enterprise-Type" or any other nomenclatures mentioned here.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...But in that case, the class name of several other ships, of older or newer design, was Starship, too.

    Which is of course quite possible. We might well call both the Iowa class and South Dakota class vessels "battleship class" ships, or the Essex class and Independence class ships "carrier class" vessels. The Constitution and Ranger classes might both be "starship class", as opposed to the Gapfiller class which is a "corvette class" of vessels.

    Timo Saloniemi