MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by bigdaddy, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In the USA, that's the 3RD such major 'incident' involving mass killings by firearms this year.
    In China, that was the only such 'incident' in two years; and it came nowhere close to having a number of casualties (as in, killed victims) in the dozens.
    China has ~1,3 BILLION inhabitants; USA, ~315 millions.

    The imbalance is obvious to anyone who cares to look.


    There will always be depressed losers who blame society for their problems. No type or amount of mental health care services will change this.

    Where guns are NOT easy to obtain/NOT owned by anyone and his idiot cousin, they can't get one (meticulous, long-term planning is definitely not their strength).
    Using knives/other such weapons requires training (and, again, meticulous, sustained effort is not their strength). Also, knives/etc are far from being as deadly as firearms - as the comparison between the number of victims in SUA and China attests to.


    What does this mean?
    In countries where firearms are NOT easily obtainable, such 'incidents' (crazies killing tens of people) are rare.
    In countries where firearms are easy to obtain and, consequently, ubiquitous (such as the USA), such 'incidents' are not rare at all - quite the opposite.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  2. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    double post
     
  3. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    This is just tragic beyond belief. The violent death of so many small children is too heartbreaking for words. Offering condolences to the survivors and families is inadequate, to say the least, but what else can one say? :(

    Exactly. Thank you for being the voice of reason here. Escalating a situation like this with hatred does not help anything. We need to do a much better job of identifying and treating mental illness.
     
  4. SmoothieX

    SmoothieX Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Newtown is about half an hour from where I grew up. They got an awesome grocery store there where you can sample stuff as you go. Great place to go when you want a free lunch. Nice movie theater there too.

    Probably won't be big crowds at the Danbury Mall today if you want to get some Xmas shopping in. Of course you might get shot in the event this wasn't an isolated event.
     
  5. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    I used to live in CT and drove through Newtown on my way to work. Very pleasant small rural town, which could be "Anytown USA" really. How horrific this whole thing has been... Newtown has lost its "under the radar" cachet... going to be an unsettled place for some time to come. My heart is so broken over this. 18 innocent lives.

    Non Sync is right. It's not about guns. It's about mental health. THAT is the problem. A crazy mind like this can devise other means of destruction if guns aren't available. Unfortunately, the reason why such tragedies happen is due to severe mental illness that is allowed to fester without any reparation. It's a CULTURAL problem. That's the real issue at hand that nobody really wants to admit. And sticking electronic emotion monitoring chips inside people to make sure they behave is probably going to end up as the solution if we don't address the core issue, which is parenting and communication. Adam was probably living in his own little frustrated world, and allowed himself to degenerate over time until he'd do something like this. I have a suspicion that his father and older brother are going to come back with "well, he was having some problems and didn't want to talk about them much, and that's about it... sadly."
     
  6. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sad. So sad. Newtown is a bit outside the part of Connecticut I'm familiar with. But it hit home especially as an Educator.

    If I get the job near Boston, Newtown would be on the route from here.
     
  7. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Can't blame it just on the media. We're totally capable of deciding how much of the coverage we do and don't want to read/watch/listen to.

    Nicely said, Jayrath.

    Far more people die of suicide than homicide, so, in a sense, most people do start with the last step.
     
  8. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    ^ But unfortunately, the (apparently) homicidal ones don't.

    The ones that do are monumentally depressed, the ones that don't have a load of other issues.
     
  9. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I believe you're right, Gary7. Unfortuntely, from what I've seen it looks like the "gun issue" is dominating the discussion yet again. And I do think it's an important issue that really does need discussing, but I think it's drawing attention away from the real problem - which I'd hazard a guess is the lack of interest in monitoring and supporting the long-term mental health of citizens, as well as cultural attitudes that push self-reliance, individualism and competition to unhealthy extremes and foster frustration, isolation and aggression in those who can't cope. I also fear that when this sort of thing happens, with the response from most people being to close ranks and exclude the murderer, it encourages further the general attitude that nothing should be done until a person snaps, that individual responsibility is all that matters and poor mental health is "not our problem" - unfortunately, it will be everyone's problem, because some people end up with their minds twisted enough that they'll do things like this, and it's far too late then. :(

    I think part of the problem is that these discussions - gun control, mental health, violence - only seem to catch people's attention when we're dealing with reaction to the aftermath of a terrible crime. And that's not a good time to hold such a discussion, because distress and anger and confusion are all running high. When you're responding to something like this in the immediate aftermath, any reaction is going to be concerned with either soothing unrest and providing comfort or exploiting the unrest to some political or ideological end. Neither of those lends itself easily to a truthful examination of a society. People will latch onto the easy answers or the comfortable old debates (e.g. American gun control), and because a show of solidarity becomes incredibly important after events like this, it means the more uncomfortable issues are not going to be examined for fear of harming that sense of emotional unity.

    The discussions and examinations need to happen before these events, and between them. Building on something Ziyal said above, the suicide rate needs real attention; the vast majority of disturbed people kill themselves and no-one else, and unless there's some ideological/political capital to be taken from it there's never any real attention paid to them. I'd encourage a discussion on mental health and attitudes toward support and community over another debate on guns, but I'm wary that trying to start such a discussion in response to an event like this is not likely to lead anywhere productive. I think I'd suggest that everyone wait for the shock and unrest to die down a little, but don't just forget what's happened; use it to encourage a rational discussion on change.
     
  10. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Amen! The only part I disagree with is that I think we have to have both discussions, mental health and guns. As we saw so dramatically yesterday, a disturbed person with a gun can do so much more damage in a short period of time than a disturbed person with some other weapon.
     
  11. Gryffindorian

    Gryffindorian Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The problem is guns + mental health.
     
  12. Kelthaz

    Kelthaz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Such as? What else could someone use as a means of destruction that would have the same fatality rate as a gun?
     
  13. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It IS about guns. You will never be able to prevent amok runs. But you can reduce the causalities. Had this guy only had an axe or a kitchen knife, there would be a lot more survivors. There is no need for guns for civilians. No need at all.
     
  14. Kira's Mom

    Kira's Mom Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  15. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    It's a sad state of affairs when a group of people are planning to picket a funeral. Basic human decency says shouldn't do it. I wonder sometimes how these people would feel if it was one of their children thats was brutally murdered and someone decide to picket their child's funeral. I suspect that they wouldn't like it.
     
  16. Kelthaz

    Kelthaz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm just surprised that picketing funerals is legal. I would think that it would fall under a hate speech law or something similar.
     
  17. Miss Chicken

    Miss Chicken Little three legged cat with attitude Admiral

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    From what I have read -

    members of the Westboro Baptist Church believe that they are the only ones who are following God's word. They also believe that because they are following God's word they cannot die. I imagine that if one of them died they would say that that person had sinned and God had rejected them and therefore the rest of the flock would reject the person who had died and there might not even be a funeral.

    However I am not sure if they will take this tack if Fred himself dies.


    Edited to add - I am almost certain that it was Nate Phelps who said that this is his family's attitude to death. Though it has been 30 years since Nate has talked to his family but I think he has kept himself up to date on their beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
  18. propita

    propita Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Whether it's guns or mental health as the core issue, this country is not going to police everyone to the extent that would be required to make sure it NEVER can happen again. Because that's not possible. Many of the killers aren't in any serious legal problems until they kill.

    How much "intrusive government" would there be on limiting at least certain guns/weapons versus checking out each and every American to see if they have killer tendencies. Or are depressed. Or whatever. I'm fairly sure one could claim that most Americans would qualify as depressed at least one week each year--we live in stressful times where there's not a general sense of community. Sometimes it's hard just to get through the day and everyone is usually locked into their own survival; not physical survival, but emotional survival--which is what seems to be the big trigger.

    I have no idea what to do, but ideas need to be brought up, discussed, discarded/attempted, etc.
     
  19. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I saw this on FB. Didn't take the time to research whether the attribution to Freeman is correct, because the point is excellent no matter who said it. The only part I disagree with is the last line, because like I've said before, I think it's a matter of mental health and guns.

     
  20. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I read that the murdered mom was "struggling" with her difficult son. It made me immediately think of other single parents I've known (not saying it's only single parents, just those are the ones I've known of) who have 20 something sons living at home, barely or not working, hostile, maybe substance abusing, aggressive, sometimes with clear mental health issues, refusing any intervention or offers of help. I've known a few people who were hostages in their own home because of this kind of thing. You can't just throw a son out because their problems are so serious they are unemployable but they make your life a living hell.. but not hell enough to get any outside intervention.

    There are a lot of ticking time bombs out there who are going to hurt themselves or their families or strangers and who's loved ones can't find any solutions for. What do you get told, "make" him go to this psychiatrist which you can't afford, make him go on meds which you also can't afford, make him go to this 12 step group.. and in the end you cannot make them do anything.

    Society relies on the family to care for people who have serious issues and there is no back up or professional help for those families. What do you do when you know something is seriously wrong but there is no avenue to fix it?