MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by bigdaddy, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. gturner

    gturner Admiral

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    That might be the same study I was thinking of, or a different analysis of the data. What I'd read was from the Economist back in 2002. Your take seems more in line with this blog post from 2005 talking about perhaps the same study, or perhaps a subsequent one, where other reseachers were dismissing some of the author's conclusions, which seemed to be more about the maternal mother-in-law's role, though that was an aspect in the first article, too.

    But it definitely wasn't medieval as I had thought. I must've spent too many years studying medieval German violence and now it's sticking in my head.
     
  2. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What's the definition of "too few years" ?

    Wait. Wait. You know what....I do not want to know.
     
  3. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    I applaud you. You managed to completely derail this threat.

    Bravo.
     
  4. Data Holmes

    Data Holmes Admiral Admiral

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    I thought the actual topic had evolved from a blow by blow reporting of the event and speculation of motive, into an argument between one side wanting to ban guns as an answer to events like this, and people pointing out that mental illness and society are the driving factors and that weapons bans do not change/have little effect on that.

    In that sense, his posts are right in line with the discussion.
     
  5. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Only gun-nuts are saying that.
     
  6. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    And I don't think any one is saying that other factors shouldn't be looked at, but just because there might be other factors doesn't mean gun control shouldn't be looked at as well.

    Other nations have issues with health care of people with mental health problems, and have their own socital issues to deal with. These issues exists in all countries to various degrees now they may not be exactly the same or even directly comporable with each other.

    So what would be wrong,

    In requiring to register all weapons sales (be they at a shop or gun show)?
    Perform a Federal background check in order to purchase a weapon?
    Having to provide a medical certificate that you are mentally fit to own a weapon (annually at your cost)?
    If you die the state takes ownership of any weapons until the benefactors have passed a Federal Background check and proided a medical certifciate?

    Other more extreme measures would be to limit the amount of ammo you can prchase in a year, i.e 100 bullets for a handgun, however if you police your brass you can replace that upto the maximum ammount of bullets allowed.

    True you would need a national database.
     
  7. Data Holmes

    Data Holmes Admiral Admiral

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    We looked at gun bans in the 90's. You know what they found? Had such a massively minuscule effect on crime and murder rates that the FBI said they were totally worthless. Did nothing to stop mass causality incidents as demonstrated by the columbine highschool shooting, as well as others.


    And anyone who complains about normal capacity magazines, do you realize how dumb an argument that is? A person, with as little practice time as a weekend, can learn to effect a tactical magazine change, one where you use your primary or trigger hand to activate the mag realese allowing the empty to drop free while getting the fresh mag with your week hand, inserting it, and racking the slide/receiver, in as little as 1 to 2 seconds. That is a total of 3 to 6 seconds added to the total time to fire off 30 rounds, assuming a ten round limited copacity magazine. That is effectively pointless in a mass shooting attack.
     
  8. Squiggy

    Squiggy FrozenToad Admiral

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    Oh, you mean that high school that had armed guards? That one?

    "But Squiggy, they were ordered to stand down."

    I don't give a fuck. They had armed guards, just as the NRA is suggesting. The failure of the armed guards FOR WHATEVER REASON is ample evidence that your idea is idiotic.

    Now, blame 20 year old video games as your masters tell you.
     
  9. Data Holmes

    Data Holmes Admiral Admiral

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    It's funny that Clinton's 2000 $120 million expansion of cops in schools as part of the aniversary of columbine is so conviently forgotten by liberals today. And that was while the assault weapons ban was still in full effect as well. Why did we need more armed cops in school if the scary black guns were banned? http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/16/news/mn-20323
     
  10. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    So we agree, that a gun ban would have an impact on the murder rate, even if it was miniscule.

    Guess what if that miniscule effect was even saving one life, it would be worth it.
     
  11. Data Holmes

    Data Holmes Admiral Admiral

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    That's just it, the FBI study showed that there was no discernible statistical effect to the assault weapons ban. They out right said that the murder statistics would have been the same with or without the ban.

    So, the ban had no discernible effect to the firearm murder statistics!

    In fact, not only did murder rates decline following the sun setting of the assault weapons ban, nearly every crime rate dropped. LATimes2005: The Big Lie of the Assault Weapons Ban!
     
  12. gturner

    gturner Admiral

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    Nightmare, I think we can work with his proposal. As gun owners, recognizing that many are demanding the surrender of Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms in exchange for just one life, we just need to dictate terms.

    "We will guarantee to drop the murders by one, but in return, we demand that you destroy your TV's, cars, smartphones, and toilets. Then vote Republican forevermore, submit all your comments for our pre-approval, give us the labors of all your offspriing in perpetuity in this world and the next, and worship us as divine gods. You must also make cat toys for us."

    The Founders have endless quotes on trading liberty for security, but if you figure in the profit motive, maybe we should just go ahead and exploit the snot out of these folks before any one of a half-million criminal gang members beats us to it.

    Go grab up a random nephew, teach him to scream on camera for ice cream treats, and we'll take this country to the cleaners. Even odds says we can get them to renounce the entire Bill of Rights and half the thoughts since the Enlightenment, but most importantly, ALL their money.

    All those perps in the EU, UK, and FBI bank robbery stats? Total morons. If only they knew they could exploit anti-violence logic to clean out entire national treasuries and turn millions into willing slaves with nothing but a nasty misspelled note and a pair of panty hose.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  13. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    When did toilets ever kill anyone?

    Oh, there was Elvis. But that's all in the past now.
     
  14. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    You are scared, afraid, aren't you?
     
  15. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Here's a compendium of studies showing, again - unsurprisingly -, that whether you look across cities, U.S. states, or countries, more availability of guns leads to more gun violence and more gun homicides.

    Statistical data make the pro-gun anecdotes/rhetoric/straw-men look like the jokes they are.
     
  16. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    About Canada:
    Guns are common enough in Canada. But not nearly as ubiquitous as in the USA. Also the type of firearms are quite different.

    As far as I know, fully automatic hand guns are impossible for individuals to own. Also assault rifles, grenade launchers and other items that appear to be available in various jurisdictions in the USA.

    To get the license to purchase a revolver or semiautomatic handgun in Canada requires a fairly thorough criminal record check, and provision of 2 references (who are themselves both given criminal records checks and grilled as to the suitability of the candidate to own restricted firearms). The only justification for owning one is sport shooting. (Personal self defense is NOT a valid reason to purchase ANY firearm.) The RCMP then keep a national database entry on both the owner and the weapon.

    Unlicensed and illegal firearms do exist, but their ownership is a crime and leads to an automatic prison sentence when found out.

    Most firearms are long guns (rifles) used in either sport shooting or hunting (which itself requires a license, unless one is aboriginal and has a subsistence hunting exemption).

    A HUGE difference between this and the mess in the USA. Explaining nicely the lack of periodic mass shootings in Canada.
     
  17. gturner

    gturner Admiral

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    Well, okay, I was just trying to slip that one past them to see if they could figure out how to poop wihtout a toilet. I figured I could later give a speech about how they "worship the porcelain god" and then throw a beer, wine, and cheese festival to cement my rule by giving them all a guilt trip over their tummy's reaction to the cheap stuff I'll serve them. Divine gods, especially evil ones, do that kind of thing all the time.

    Lately I am thinking that a homily on the sheepdog and the wolf might be in order, and how hard it is to protect the flock when the sheep think all sharp teeth are the same, but with people who think serious, heart rending problems are introduced in the first 15 minutes of the episode and solved once a planet agrees to the pat solution that doesn't make a lick of sense in the episode's last five minutes, I'm not sure any progress is possible.
     
  18. gturner

    gturner Admiral

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    No, your study is junk because they didn't have the courage to take any actual academic risk. They say they controlled for povertty, but poverty is not a good indicator of crime, culture is. Turkey is extremely poor by EU standards but they rate like Germans on being proper and honest. Many rich kids will rob or kill you for jollies.

    When you take state-by-state firearm rates versus murder rates, you get almost a shotgun pattern (I can IM anyone my spreadsheet so far). The first pass shows that Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Vermont, and other extremely high gun-ownership states have a murder rate lower than the UK, but so do some other wildly homogenous white states with low gun ownership rates, like Rhode Island or Massachusetts.

    If you try to remove the influence of blacks on the data, the outliers shift to Alaska and the Southwest, and the core data is still a random shotun blast. There is no way to remove cultural influence without breaking things down further into Hispanics and Indians, and then Southern Baptist blacks versus rappers, Italians versus English, Japanese versus Somoans, Hondurans versus Mexicans.

    The thing is, even if you take it to those levels, you can do it all day long in a futile attempt to tease gun vs. homicide rates out of noise, and you can create all kinds of patterns, and not one of them is valid on the next run. The gun data is actually noise.

    ETA: The Harvard study would've browsed through countless junk plots until they started seeing what they wanted using a set of defensible metrics. They also could've shown you anything else you wanted to see. A previous Harvard study reached the exact opposite conclusions and was cited by the US Supreme Court.

    When you're trying to tease tenth of a percent trends out of data (1.5 vs 1.6) and your sample includes hundrds of 1's and an occassional 300, whose behavior depends on what happened on MTV the previous night, it is da** hard to extract meaningful information.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  19. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That would be 'studies' (NOT "study").
    And one can't fake or 'academic risk' numbers and probability - as long as the studies follow logic (which they do).

    It's your poor attempts at doctoring the data, rhetoric and straw-men that are 'junk' - as is blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to look.

    But you don't care about that. You are only interested in continuing with your gun hobby regardless of how many die for it. And fooling yourself into thinking you are a human being beyond the biological level.
     
  20. gturner

    gturner Admiral

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    There are no American forces in Iraq! What you see is an illussion I tell you! We are slaughtering them everywhere. They are killing themselves with shovels.

    Yeah, seen that one.