Mass Effect 3

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by PsychoPere, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    It does discredit the testimony if you can show that the one testifying is biased in some way. If you put a self-declared Nazi on the stand and ask them to describe Jewish people, it wont be flattering, and you can't say that it is an objective truth.

    Sovereign has a bias against organic life, it's trying to kill us, so why should I trust it to tell the truth about us?

    Exactly! That's my point. Sovereign can claim that the Reapers are god-like and that organic life is an accident as much as it wants, but if it doesn't provide evidence for it's claims then why would you believe it?

    Well okay, I wont get into the philosphical distinction between belief and knowledge as that's beside the point, and it was my mistake in swerving off the path like that.

    However, the point was that you believe Sovereign is telling the truth and I believe it is not. Without evidence to support either of our positions, you can't claim that your position is more valid than my position, and vice versa. At least, that was the way things used to be, ME2 has now provided some evidence that the Reapers have their origins in organic life, which suggests that Sovereign wasn't telling the whole truth in ME1.

    If you want to continue to believe Sovereign and claim that ME2 contradicts ME1, there's nothing I can do to stop you, but I hope that you can see now why I don't see any contradictions as I didn't believe Sovereign's claims in the first place.
     
  2. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
    Even though the focus seems to be element zero, manipulation of dark energy is the ability that is natural to the asari.

    It doesn't discount your theory...but there maybe more than one way to reach that ability to manipulate dark energy than just element zero exposure.

    You miss my point. My fault perhaps. We knew even back then that there was no such thing as a pure race. That was a philosophy not a truth. We knew it as a false statement. We don't know if Sovereign's assertion are false, there is no common frame of reference from which to make that conclusion indirectly. What is needed is the direct opposition of fact and or self contradiction.

    That's not exactly accurate. I don't believe anything concerning the veracity of Sovereign's statements. As an objective observer I merely can't make the assertion that he is lying without cause. In other words I can't slander him. A judge can't baselessly decide who's telling the truth or whose lying. Testimony is treated as strongly as evidence but it can be overturned by evidence. It may present evidence in a different light or perspective. But evidence can definitely overrule testimony outright (if it's the right evidence)

    1-On the one had we have witnesses (The Council) who say that the Sovereign Reaper was mere Geth tech. ME2. Further the debris field itself (of Sovereign) before the entire Fleet is reasonable proof of no biological components.

    2-The second Reaper discovered by politically independent sources (Cerberus Research) discover no biological components. ME2

    3-On the other hand Sovereign claims flesh is inferior decays an dies but they are eternal.

    4-Shepard and EDI Identitfy (method unknown) that the Skeleton Machine is a Reaper and liquefied remains of humans are being used to fill it. (purpose unknown)

    Sources 1-3 are consistent with one another.
    Source 4 Contradicts sources 1-3


    The evidence of both Reaper ships supports Sovereign's testimony that organic flesh is inferior and temporary. Source 4 is an exceedingly large plot hole in ME2 whether or not it's resolved in ME3.
     
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    If the asari were able to manipulate dark energy through a manner differently than how humans, turians, krogan, etc., do it, then it would have been mentioned in the Codex somewhere. Until we hear otherwise, the only way possible for an organic species to actively manipulate dark energy is through physical exposure to element zero. There is zero evidence for the asari being able to use biotics in any other way.
     
  4. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
    They do say it.
    They say it's natural...no exposure is mentioned in the codex.
    That's different from how the other races, turian, humans and krogan gain the ability.
     
  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Right. Because humans, turians, and krogans don't have any element zero on their world, they didn't develop the ability naturally, and have to be exposed in-utero to gain it. Since there isn't any other known way of gaining biotics (yet), we have to assume the asari's homeworld has element zero in it, probably its core, to explain how they developed it naturally. There might be a different explanation in ME3, but until then, that's the best guess any of us can make.

    Then again, we won't really know just how inconsistent the story of the Reapers may or may not be until ME3, either, so arguing about either case is kind of pointless at this stage.
     
  6. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
    Are you saying it's a known fact that there is element zero on the Asari Homeworld?
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Are you reading every word of my posts, or only some of them? :wtf:

    I suggest you go over what I said again.
     
  8. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Location:
    UK
    Are you being intentionally dense or something? I really can't tell. The codex entry explicitly says that the gun is a scaled *down* version of the one Sovereign had. Meaning it's *less* powerful than the original Reaper version. Just because Sovereign didn't happen to have any bigger ships around to destroy is neither here nor there.

    As for the Turians spotting it's approach; it's a bit hard to miss anything that size when it's in visual range...like when it went ramming through half the fleet.

    While I understand the argument from an objective standpoint, I get the feeling that being a big, ancient and neigh incomprehensible as Reapers are above that kind of self delusion. I see it as being somewhat akin to the opposing Vorlon and Shadow ideologies from B5. Neither is "wrong" or even biased, it's just a point of view that they've set on. Likewise the Reapers have concluded that their way of harvesting and "ascending" suitable races is the best way to perpetuate themselves. The fact that they've lasted so long means they're correct...though of course being correct doesn't mean they're nice about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
  9. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Location:
    Dayglow, New California Republic
    It can be assumed, then, that the Asari would need the eezo in their bodies, regardless of whether or not their abilities are based on pure electrical charge manipulation, or more magical dark energy manipulation.
     
  10. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 25, 2002
    On a related Mass Effect note, I finished reading the third novel, Retribution, earlier tonight. Anderson can still be a bit of a badass - I want him on my squad in ME3.
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    There's another character introduced in Retribution that I hope will be in ME3 as an antagonist. I really want my Shepard to kill that bastard.

    The Mass Effect novels are pretty decent, overall. They're not literary masterpieces or anything, but definitely readable. I'd also recommend David Gaider's Dragon Age novels, The Stolen Throne and The Calling.
     
  12. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Location:
    Australia
    Do the novels have any impact in the games, or at least ME2?
     
  13. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2001
    Not really. The novels tie in to the games in some fun ways, but nothing of any particular substance.
     
  14. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Location:
    Dayglow, New California Republic
    Hide yo wife, hide yo kids, cause they reapin' everyone on Earth.
     
  15. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Location:
    UK
    Yes and no. Yes the events in the books "happen" in the continuity of the games and some repercussions did creep into the games. For example, if you'll recall when you first encounter Tali in ME2 the other Quarians *really*don't like Cerberus and when you ask, Tali mentions an incident involving Cerberus going after a young human biotic girl hiding in the Migrant Fleet. That incident is the central plot to the novel 'Ascension'. You might also recall in ME1 Anderson had some prior history with Saren where he was almost the first human Spectre. That story is told 'Revelation'

    While on the other hand, no, nothing in the books (aside from a few possible errors) can contradict anything you can do in the games. For example, although Shepard is mentioned a few time, the Commander's first name, gender or appearance is never mentioned.

    Mostly though, they're separate but connected stories. One taking place decades prior, another between ME1 & 2 and another just after ME2. The main constant is that Anderson is prominently featured though not exactly the protagonist of all three.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
  16. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Location:
    Australia
    They sound interesting, might have to hunt them down
     
  17. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 25, 2002
    Very much agreed.

    I've read those as well. Very enjoyable.

    I'd say they're worth reading. They're not mind-blowing, but they are a lot of fun and offer perspectives on other events in the universe that you don't get from the games.
     
  18. bullethead

    bullethead Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2008
    Revelation is OK, but the other two are severely hampered by this Mary Sue character that Drew Karpyshn introduced in Revelation (where she wasn't too bad). You're better off looking up the summaries on the Mass Effect wiki than reading Ascension and Retribution.
     
  19. Blamo

    Blamo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    The best thing about Retribution is that it goes into detail about indoctrination (and it does add some additional nightmare fuel to it), shows a bit of how the Reapers think and once again reminds us how advanced Reaper tech is (especially the bit about quantum entanglement).

    As for the female character being a Mary Sue, that's something she most certainly isn't, no matter which definition you use. She's just so bloody useless and is so easily tricked that the author lampshaded it in Retribution.

    While the books aren't fantastic, they do a good job of expanding the Mass Effect Universe, with some element filtering back into the main story (the academy for example, which gets mentioned in the Overlord DLC).
     
  20. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
    I fail to to comprehend how prefacing you comments with an insult serves any purpose at all. I haven't committed the codex to memory.
    I don't believe that has any significant meaning.
    If they had cloak or Stealth it would have been logical to use it to get to the station and let the Geth occupy the Citadel fleet.

    While I understand the argument from an objective standpoint, I get the feeling that being a big, ancient and neigh incomprehensible as Reapers are above that kind of self delusion. I see it as being somewhat akin to the opposing Vorlon and Shadow ideologies from B5. Neither is "wrong" or even biased, it's just a point of view that they've set on. Likewise the Reapers have concluded that their way of harvesting and "ascending" suitable races is the best way to perpetuate themselves. The fact that they've lasted so long means they're correct...though of course being correct doesn't mean they're nice about it.[/QUOTE]
    Indeed. I thought you were offering answers and not merely your own speculations.

    From the wiki...

    All asari are natural biotics from birth (see below), though not all choose to develop their abilities. Biotics of other species, such as humans, are individuals who were exposed to dust-form element zero ('eezo') in utero and, beating the odds, developed eezo nodules throughout their nervous system. The natural electrical impulses in the body can create mass effect fields from these nodules, producing the effects seen as biotic abilities.

    Your assumptions are fine as speculation goes but the asari aren't in the category of using eezo modules. They are out side the "Other Species" group made in the codex signifying that some other method is at work. I did look up Bio amps and it does seem to support your asari element zero theory but it's not specific enough to be for sure.