Mass Effect 2

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by TheBrew, Jan 22, 2010.

  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    They can't shut down the relays. Only the Reapers are able to control the entire relay network. Even if the Council races could shut down the relays, they never would because it would effectively destroy galactic civilization and commerce.

    They're a big enough threat to make the Council not want to send an entire fleet to Ilos, which was in the Terminus Systems, because they knew it would more than likely spark a war.

    Because:

    A) Nobody had considered the possibility of destroying a mass relay before the Alpha Relay project.
    B) Considering the Omega Relay's importance, it's probable that the Reapers made it impossible to be shut down by anyone but themselves.
    C) Sending anyone in to try to destroy the Omega Relay would lead to a war.
    D) Destroying the Omega Relay would also destroy the entire star system surrounding it, killing millions of people (Omega alone has a population of 7.8 million) and more than likely leading to a war between the Council races and the Terminus Systems.
     
  2. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Plus of course, shutting down the entire relay network is exactly what the Reapers want to do. Remember the Protheans were defeated over the course of centuries, with the Reapers in control they effectively shattered their empire by isolating all of their population centres then systematically going after them one planet at a time.

    "Sending a fleet after them" makes about as much sense as launching a grape fruit at a freight train and would have be about as effective. As Hackett pointed out, it took multiple fleets to take down one Reaper and even then it was only momentarily vulnerable because Shepard destroyed it's avatar (quantum entanglement working both ways it seems.) If the Reapers move together in force (which is a fairly safe bet they do) then even if every warship in the galaxy swarmed them at once, they'd be a rapidly expanding dust cloud in about 5 seconds flat.

    Aside from the points Skywalker raised, there's also the possibility that the Omega-4 relay may not have been the Collector's *only* means of reaching the terminus systems or citadel space.

    Leaving aside the pesky technical impossibilities of shutting down a relay (already known to be unstable) and the mass genocide that would result in wiping out Omega's star system, including all the other Mass Relays, thus probably cutting off a sizeable chunk of territory from the rest of the galaxy...those issues aside, taking out the relay doesn't solve the bigger problem: a lack of solid information. The Illusive Man correctly surmised that if the Collectors were indeed agents for the Reapers then not only did they need to stop them from taking colonists, they needed to know what they were doing with them, why and at the same time try to find anything they can that might give them an edge over the Reapers. The best way to do all that is to follow the Collectors back to their point of origin, find what out what they can (the Normandy was after all built for stealth recon), sabotage their operation and get the hell out in one piece if possible...or die trying.
     
  3. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    It's better than letting the Reapers kill everyone and everything don't ya think?

    Think about that.
    That was only after they arrived.
    If you prevent them from arriving by shutting down the Relays then you've stopped them for an extended period of time.
    That's why you build bigger fleets.
    That Fleet only had one Dreadnought. The focus resources of an entire galaxy should be able to combat what ever resources the Reapers have. After all how do you expect to beat them in the ME3....

    Isn't it a given that Shepard will be rallying all the forces of Galaxy?

    It's a story they contrive any method they needed ut I speak of the known quantities of the story not the vague or the unknown.

    But known of what you found was necessary to defeating the Reapers otherwise both Paragon and Renegade paths would have had at least something in common in gleaning tech but it didn't. Knowing what they were doing with the humans didn't help the goal at all. You didn't get a weapon to stop the Reapers or learn a vital weakness either....It was at best a stalling effort for the Paragon side.
     
  4. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It amounts to the same thing, only slower. It also leaves everyone isolated from everyone else and thus essentially defenceless. Besides, as has been made abundantly clear, the council doesn't believe in the Reaper threat. They've convinced themselves Sovereign was a Geth ship and the Reapers are a myth Saren used to control the Geth.

    Except they're already *in* the galaxy, were already close to one relay. who's to say they couldn't reactivate a relay once they're close enough? They built the things after all. And once they have one back on, then they can travel from one to another across the entire network. Shutting them all off only buys you however many months it takes them to get to the next closest relay.

    Perhaps, but how exactly can you "rally the forces of the galaxy" if you've shut down the only means for them to travel and communicate over long distance? Besides, I think the only given is that defeating the Reapers won't depend on how much hardware Shepard can throw at them but in finding some old Prothean device that'll switch them all off or something. It's a role playing game, not an RTS.

    But that's just it. There were quite clearly too much they didn't know to take such drastic action on very little information. Hell, they didn't even know for sure it was the Collectors until just *after* Shepard was brought back. Plus, as has been repeatedly stated, the relays were supposed to be indestructible.

    It doesn't matter what they did or didn't find out. If they knew that ahead of time what they'd find then there wouldn't be any point in going now, would there? They didn't know, so they needed to find out what' they're up to and stop it if possible. For all they knew the Collectors were using the humans as slaves to build a new citadel and open it to darkspace. What you don't know can kill you.
     
  5. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    Great Generals have said that the difference between victory and defeat is the use of time toward the end. Despite the stupidity of the Council these are viable options if the story telling allowed for them. As it stands Sheppard is going to do exactly as I say should be done...just in a much shorter and less realistic amount of time with less resources.

    Firstly I have to ask...how did they get in the galaxy once the Relay was destroyed? They never really explained the Relay tech very well or how fast it works (haven't read everything like you have) but it seems to me once the relay was destroyed they should have been unable to slow down from speeds MILLIONS of times faster than light. They should have lost a considerable portion of their fleet in the intergalactic void out of control forever because the ships FTL obvious don't have the ability to retro that sort of velocity.

    The travel seemed instant from Where Joker and the Fleet jumped into Citadel space with and other times you have to wonder if the travel time is just distance for traveling to Relay for transit.

    You may be right there but they're not telling the story of it well. I hope it doesn't come off as a Deus Ex machima in ME3 because right now that's how it seems....like long shot piece of tech...like often was done in Stargate. Yeah I liked stargate and that was fun but at least they always built up the search for that tech. I fear that search will only be in the Third game or worse...at the latter part of the third game...which would seem so contrived for the story line.

    We talked about this before...
    The real issue is the conclusion of the Reapers just being myth and Geth ships in ME2...despite all the incontrovertible evidence to the contrary and the story really puts some flimsy one liner expainers to attempt to give it some semblance of sense.

    They powered these artifacts before from the PROTHEANS not really the Reapers. The Protheans had no reason to conceal their technology they could have powered that hologram...how hard could it have been? Every ship had a VI interface just like it...

    I mean Vigil would be the greatest find of all time on Earth today. If we knew as much about that technology as they do I know we'd find a way to access that core. It was definitely possible they just didn't write it properly.

    But that's my point...It didn't matter what they found...it ultimately was a useless, stalling story arc. The real ending for ME2 should have been Arrival...and this collector stuff should have been DLC after that fact.
     
  6. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's self defeating. The relays offer mobility and communication which are the closest things to advantages a fleet has over the Reapers. Isolating all the systems leaves them as sitting ducks as there's no guarantee the Reapers couldn't simply switch them on again. It's all moot anyway since the citadel races barely understand how the relays work, let alone have the slightest idea how to fully control them. Destroying them clearly isn't an option because it'd mean wiping out just about every inhabited system in the galaxy, not exactly a wise strategic plan.

    Mass effect fields are supposed to negate the effects of gravity and inertia by reducing the mass of objects within the field. As such, a ship's ability to decelerate is limited only by the power of it's element zero core. Reapers, even dead ones have been shown to have enormously powerful cores and able to pull of manoeuvres that would tear any other ship in half.

    As for how relays work, it's all in the codex and if you don't want to load up the game to read it, I'm pretty sure everything has been transcribed onto the Mass Effect Wiki. In brief though, they weren't heading for that relay from another outside the galaxy, they were travelling to that system on the outer edge of the galaxy under their own power. If they'd reached the relay, it would have given them access to the entire network and allowed them to go just about anywhere in the galaxy. Without that relay, they're forced to continue under their own power to the next nearest relay, which would be weeks, months or even years away at even their FTL speeds.

    It's simply a matter of logic. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Reapers and even one of them was a nightmare to take out and even then it wasn't through sheer fire power but a quirk in Reaper indoctrination technology that left it *momentarily* vulnerable. Against such overwhelming superiority the galaxy has no hope in defeating them by strength of arms alone, especially considering that all advanced technology is derived from Reaper tech. They intentionally lead civilizations down lines of development specifically because it leaves them vulnerable. The galaxy's only hope in defeating them lies in something other than brute force. LotSB hints that the Protheans may have been onto something, but like the conduit, it was too most likely late to make a difference. I'm sure a fair bit of ME3 will involve tracking that down.

    What's incontrovertible? Only Shepard and Saren saw the message and both beacons were destroyed. There wasn't enough wreckage of Sovereign left for anyone to prove that it wasn't just some advanced Geth design and the council decided that even if Shepard was right then as far as they were concerned the threat had passed with the destruction of Sovereign and there was no sense creating a panic with horror stories of ancient killing machines lurking out beyond the edge of the galaxy. I'm not saying they were right, but they acted according to what they knew and their own particular motivations. Short-sightedness is hardly a rare trait in politicians.

    As for Vigil, the problem wasn't power but simply extreme age. The power concerns were to do with the stasis chambers for the Prothean scientists and that was over the course of the few centuries it took the Reapers to finish their task and return to dark space. That was 50,000 years ago and the system was already breaking down when Shepard spoke to it. There mere fact that the program was operating at all after so much time is a testament to Prothean engineering, but that last conversation with Shepard probably used up whatever operational runtime it had left. If you had her in your squad, Liara would say she didn't think it would last much longer. Regardless, it said to Shepard that it's programming was limited to pretty much what it had already told them.

    How was it useless? They destroyed an embryonic Reaper and wiped out the collectors. I'd call that a successful mission! And they did find some very useful information; they found out how Reapers reproduce and that Harbinger and the others were not waiting for the Citadel to open again and were coming. All important and potentially vital information.
     
  7. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    If they could remotely switch them on I think they would have done that to the Citadel. And you wouldn't have to wipe out the Relay systems...they could (somewhat easily) be towed out side the solar system and destroyed, It would be a massive effort but more than possible with ME Tech. A Supernova level Explosion would be very localized. No more than a 100 AU. (if that)

    But if they didn't need the relays to decelerate as well as accelerate then wouldn't need the receiving relay...in fact they could literally slingshot their ship from one relay any where but that's not how they use it.

    They Mass Effect cores reduces their mass or increases there mass but will do nothing when you're traveling millions of times c. The Energy of momentum isn't being converted into relativistic mass. That energy to increase the ships mass field is coming from the core which means no matter how large the mass field is the ships velocity will remain constant despite the Mass Effect field.

    Well what parts of Arrival said this?


    That would make sense.

    Vigil.
    Illos and their endeavor.

    There was huge peices of of Sovereign left
    Enough that they reversed engineered it's weapons.

    True, but that's the part that is contrived.
    All governments have a inherent suspicion about threats to their Sovereignty. For the Council races not to...is redonkulus...That's bad story telling. They need the Shepard to be on the outside so he would have not choice but to accept Cerberus' help. That's why we're only hearing about Hackett's gestures now.


    I remember they say that the power was depleated and that's all they said. It lasted 50,000 years it seems a bit convenient that after that one amount of time it chose that moment to fail.

    But that was holographic interface alone that was breaking down. The memory was completely intact with no signs of degradation. Vigil didn't have blanks so that means the information was still viable.

    One Reaper isn't going to be the problem.
    How does know how they reproduce help (if that's even what their doing)?
     
  8. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Project base. Before the shooting starts.

    "The Reapers will arrive in this system regardless. If you want to keep them at bay, the Alpha relay must be destroyed."

    Paraphrased, of course.
     
  9. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    Yeah that was real vague...
    They never said whether they were in Transit through the Relay, I guess it's implied or whether they were approaching the Relay on their side and preparing to use it....

    I'll play agains...
     
  10. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    If they'd been in transit through the relay, they would have arrived a lot sooner. Transit between two mass relays is near-instantaneous.
     
  11. Lior .B.

    Lior .B. Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    you know, the ultimate sacrifice could have been this:
    first of all I would have force the player to play Arrival POST SM Misson.

    now instead of sacrifice the batarians (which isn't a "hard" choice for most players) Image we had to choose between letting the Reaper Use the Relay Or destroying it with the Normany and our entire squad!

    lets assume that the batarians attack and disable the Normandy's engines and it can't use the relay. Shepard can escape with a shuttle via the relay before the asteroid hit it.

    Now THAT would have been the Ultimate Sacrifice not some 300k batarians that no one cares about.


     
  12. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Citadel is the hub of the network and can control ALL the relays at once. That doesn't mean once deactivated, an individual relay can't be reactivated. Hell, we know they can because it's been done several times, it's how humanity started colonising deep space and what caused the First Contact Wars. Firstly the Charon relay was reactivated after being dormant for an extended period of time (so much that it accumilated enough frozen gas to be mistaken for a small moon.) Later, trying to reactivate a relay was what caught the attention of the turians who chose to open fire on the human team, assuming they didn't know what they were tampering with. I think it's safe to say that the Reapers would be fully capable of reactivating the relays one pair at a time even without the Citadel.

    They need the relays to cross intra-galactic distances in a reasonable amount of time, yes, but relays aren't the only means of FTL propulsion. It's all on the codex.

    This was specifically addressed by Anderson. A lot of it went missing through illegal salvage operations, the Keepers somehow managed to spirit away some more and out of what was left, there wasn't anything that (officially at least) could prove that it *wasn't* a Geth ship.

    How is it contrived? It's totally reasonable that a government that has a history of interfering to avoid conflict at almost any cost would look at the evidence, decide that the Geth are the true threat that all the reaper mumbo jumbo is just the ramblings of one over excitable human. People like Anderson and Hackett believe Shepard on *trust*. They didn't see the vision, didn't speak to Sovereign on Virmire or Vigil on Ilos. Though we know it's all true because we play as Shepard, from the POV of Udina and the council there's no concrete, verifiable evidence to support the Commander's story...until Arrival anyway. In the mean time it's much more politically convenient to blame it all on Saren and the Geth.

    No, that was the cryonic systems for the base staff. Those thing ran out of power after just the first few centuries. Listen for yourself. As for Vigil, it stands the reason it'd spent most of the last fifty millennia in a state of dormancy, so the mere act of reactivating even for such a short time probably hastened it's deterioration. If left undisturbed it may have lasted another few millennia and concerns if someone else had turned up and triggered it prior to Saren and Shepard then it's possible it would have been dead *long* before the Normandy arrived.

    They specifically said the VI was badly damaged and wouldn't last long. We no next to nothing about the state of the databases beyond what Vigil verbally conveyed and that file that re-opened the relays. For all we know it sacrificed whole swaths of detailed data in order to preserve the most vital basic facts needed to help anyone that turned up. Hell, even if the database was intact there'd be no way to decipher it without the VI interface to interpret. It's established in ME1 that intact prothean data discs are rare, fragile and nobody has yet to figure out how to transcribe their data. Remember that prothean is a dead language and there's no "rosette stone" to base a translation on, never mind deciphering their programming language or breaking through any encryption.

    Really? Oh well if you say so. Did you even play ME1? :rolleyes:

    It's not vague at all, it's pretty damned explicit. You even see a vision of them approaching the relay. Hell, at the end of ME2 you even see them heading for the galaxy's from the void.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    I'm starting to wonder if he's actually played either game. Every question he's asked could have been easily answered by just paying attention to the games.
     
  14. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Arrival was okay, felt a bit short.

    Now the story DLCs have finished ME2 has been removed from my computer to free up the space.
     
  15. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

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    I'm starting to wonder if you understand that these are criticisms not "questions". There is a validity issue to the story that starts boldly with ME2. It's suspension of belief and it becomes more difficult to sustain the more they add on.

    Try and keep up Skywalker. I know it sounds fully explained to you but I'm looking much much deeper than I think you're contemplating right now.

    That doesn't make any sense at all. We know the Reapers used the Citadel to isolate the Prometheans all over the Galaxy, if they could have reactivated them locally ( The Prometheans) and not be overridden by the Citadel don't you think they would have? Clearly there is a Citadel override. The Premise is simple. You have the program from Vigil and you now know there is central control, hacking seems regular tech and there is definitely a way to interface with the software.

    I specifically said that normal FTL isn't going to decelerate thrust millions of times what the Relays are transporting you.
    The Normandy traveled some 15,000 lightyears to the Galactic Core in 2 or 3 seconds. That's...2,154,338,931.1653066 times the Speed of light. Now you keep saying they have other means of FTL, but the first game tells us the Protheans were very effectively cut off once those relays went down.

    So the Wiki says 12 lightyears a day. (That's REALLY GOOD SPEED.) That's 165,000 TIMES faster! than normal FTL That's like a butterfly trying reverse thrust from Hypersonic speeds. You WILL end up on the other side of the Magellanic Clouds trying to stop yourself. (IF you didn't have another relay to give you the appropriate negative velocity)

    In Star Trek Warp 9.975 gets you the same distance in half the time. SO it doesn't make sense that you propose that shutting down the network would isolate the Current Galactic inhabitants to their local star systems. In fact it doesn't make any sense at all that with FTL that the Prometheans were "isolated" as described by the wiki and as I remember from Vigil's monologue. They must have not had FTL or a far more limited form than even the current Milky Way Civilizations.


    Spirited away is right.
    And they just...accept it. That's what boggles my mind. This is a mystery. You've been told that the Citadel isn't what it appears to be...and you don't believe it...yet these strange creatures just "spirited away" Massive portions of an attacking ship. (Are you kidding me?) That's a conspiracy. Do you know of any government that wouldn't seriously start tearing apart such a station immediately to find out the truth?

    So in the end it's a massive contradiction.
    They just had large enough pieces to reconstruct it's weapons in Two short years? I' don't think so. Reconstructing the space shuttle after it's failed reentry took longer than that, just IMAGINE trying to reverse engineer any it's main engines from those scraps? Two years means you had a complete example of the weapon. That's the contrivances that make piecing together these events unlikely.

    But that's just it...
    Even if you think it's reasonable for the Alien Council to be stuck in Denial, its not a human history of Denial in the Renegade story line that is the problem. They wanted action no matter the consequences of entering Terminus...and now...they are just like the council....But even the council accepted the logic and evidence post Sovereign attack so...still a contrivance.

    Oh boy...that's not true. There is a mountain of evidence.
    The mere existence of that VAST UNDERGROUND facility, the Archives, the Program on Sheppard's Omni Tool, THE CONDUIT on the Citadel and the Conduit on Illos and Stasis Pods at Illos verifies that the Prometheans were attempting to avoid their own extinction.

    It said "my energy reverses were dwindling after the "few" centuries it took to wipe out the Prometheans. He essentially saved himself and 12 top researchers. They must have restored his energy reserves to survive the 50,000 years. The rest of the technology was functioning perfectly well. A Mass Relay, Elevators, Force fields even lights...after 50,000 years.

    But that's the thing isn't? We don't know that all.
    What we do know is that we have living quarters, Stasis Pods, Computers everywhere on Illos and we were capable of interfacing with them to open doors and access ways. It the archaeological find of all time. It's the City of the Dead. How unlikely is it that Liara is now obsessed with the Shadow Broker rather than on Illos deciphering that data. It's a story-line that takes us away from the obvious. There's no reason that having spent the last 50 years in research that they should suddenly deign upon her a social life. It's all contributing to this kinda mass ignorance. There's a mystery and seemingly no one is interested in solving it despite the obvious peril. Every step of the way we're gaining more information but no one is doing anything with it.

    Regardless we clearly have a Rosetta Stone on Illos.
    If that's not good enough Shepard himself is the Rosetta Stone with the Cipher.
    And there must be a working Beacon somewhere given what Vigil has told us.

    Are you kidding me.
    You just posted a You Tube Video where Vigil says almost Verbatim that One Reaper wouldn't be a problem.:wtf:
    On top of that if you close the Relay or destroy it they'll never finish the Reaper at all since the main ingredient seems to be homosapien....

    I understand how you've connected the dots but that a vision and Reapers siting outside the Galaxy with no apparent movement (which is what I remember) is far from explicit. See I had no way of knowing the vision was real time, past present of future. I didn't get a handle on the 2 Days remark from Sheppard or a perspective of the count down at the end. That's why I play multiple times.

    Regardless the question remains if the Relay was destroyed How can they arrive in the system... I suspect this will be one of those funky/odd continuity problems like how did the Conduit transport the mako through the Walls of the Citadel to the Presidium.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  16. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  17. LeadHead

    LeadHead Director of Comedy Premium Member

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    It's 4 bucks, if the game is worth it enough for someone to care about which decisions are set for ME2, then some will buy it. I doubt that too many will. If I hadn't already seen the ME1 comic online, I might be tempted myself. I probably wouldn't buy it, if I want to have a different set of decisions for ME2, I just play ME1.
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, in fact they only reason I was interested in the comic thing was because there isn't a PS3 version of ME1.