Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Lt. Cheka Wey, Aug 2, 2013.
Not sure the marriage or bonding is really needed.
Something like that could be examined in a series format, whether as the focus of one episode or as a story played out across many episodes. But in a movie? No - there's really not going to be enough room to address the subject adequately.
Aaand iguana gets his sarcasm detector checked.
serenitytrek1, you seriously need to start putting your rant posts in your blog and stop dumping them indiscriminately into threads here. A good half of that had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic question raised by the OP. Having opinions about stuff is one thing, but please try to keep your focus on what's being discussed and save the off-topic material for another discussion in which it's actually relevant.
First of all, let me say that I am a bit offended by your post and I say this with respect to you.
I fail to understand how my post was not relevant. Trek was a series that dealt with real human issues, I was only referencing the state of marriage and children in our society and how it should affect trek.
so how can that not be relevant to the topic?
the question asked was if couples in new trek should get married before they have kids and weather it should even matter in this current age and I said YES by backing up my opinions with the importance of marriage in the real world we live in.
So (again) how is my post not relevant to the question?
The issue on this thread is about marriage in nu trek and I am looking at marriage from a real human perspective..what trek is originally about in the first place.
Trek was always about human philosophies. Trek was a series that dealt with real social issues like racism, politics, power, marriage, friendship, family...the list goes on.
This is what made Trek unique form other franchises.
With due respect , you saying my comment is not relevant is like a person reviewing the Deep Space 9 episode (Far Beyond the Stars) where Captain Sisko leaved in the 1940'a as a writer and had to face a lot of racism because no one wanted to publish his work in academia .
Most people that have reviewed or commented on that episode to an extent has always referenced the racial history of America. In fact that episode would not have existed in the first place if America did have a long and complex history on race.
I am no different, I am stating my opinion on this topic based on society long standing history of what marriage is and am applying it to romantic relationships in Trek.
You say my post is not relevant yet you see to have forgotten that the first interracial kiss happened on trek when the civil rights movement was going on.
I guess the civil right movement in the 60's was not relevant and was not a contributing factor to why Trek had the first interracial kiss.
I doubt Gene Rodenberry would agree.
maybe I said to much but I had too. marriage and children are complex issues. even Vulcans know that.
No. You didn't have to. Not here. Please work on that.
Probably I did, but I guess it wasn't very memorable.
Times are a-changing. For the good, mostly.
Emphasis mine. Marriage is just one way to form a family. Besides, kids are better off in functional families, opposed to dysfunctional families. The composition of such families isn't that important.
The "traditional family structure" is anything but traditional, as it is a 20th century invention. The real "traditional family structure" is 2 grandparents, 7 siblings (4 of which living with a spouse), 9 kids, 2 horses, a few cows, some pigs, and a whole bunch of chickens living under the same roof.
I am eager to read how, short of shotgun marriages, you intend to guarantee such "right" of the child.
Holy racially inappropriate comment, Batman!
I think Scotty might have something to say about having farm animals all over his engines, but hey, it's tradition!
I'm missing something here. How is parents "not having anything to do with their children" a change for the good?
Because kids no longer have bed times and can get away with skipping school.
Actually, I think you missing much more here. For example, how is having unmarried parents equated with "parents not having anything to do with their children"? Most unmarried parents are actually unwed couples living together, or the results of separations and divorces.
In general, why assume only "traditional" marriage (i.e. not really traditional, as I pointed out in my previous post) can sustain a functional family? The "nuclear family" (so aptly named, since it was mostly a product of the 50s) was basically a bored housewife, an absent husband, and obedience imposed with the belt.
The whole topic is just yet another "kids these days" thread. With old grumpy people getting more and more access to the internet, I project that by 2027 all Internet boards will be the electronic equivalent of yelling "get off my lawn, you damn whippersnappers!".
They already do that. And try to convince each other the 90s are coming back any day now.
I want to echo the sentiments of several others: kids benefit when parents give a shit about them. The parents can be married, divorced, holograms, etc., I don't give a shit about that. As long as the parent(s) are eager to be a part of the kids' lives and equipped to do so, mazel tov.
On the topic of Spock/nu Vulcan having arranged marriages/breedings - that seems short-sighted. If anything, Vulcans should be encouraged to breed with humans. We've seen that Spock, a vulcan/human hybrid, seems to be, from a physiological standpoint, almost completely Vulcan. Given that he was able to succeed in Vulcan society, to the point where he was offered a slot at the Vulcan Science Academy, there seems to be no intellectual downside either. If Vulcans can get over their superiority complex, they'd see that the logical choice is to have more relationships with humans, not fewer.
Hey, the 90s were my teenage years! I swear I never had a flannel shirt, tho.
I did no such equating. I only asked why not having anything to do with their children would be considered a good thing.
I'm really not seeing where anyone's said that they did consider it such. Why not just let it go?
Well, since of course it wouldn't, I didn't feel like it needed a reply.
I was replying to CommishSleer who clearly made a connection between the two circumstances.
I guess the clauses ("unmarried people having children" and "not having anything to do with their children") could be read as independent, but as proposed, they read as related (if not outright connected by implication). I reject that premise.
IIRC, B'Elanna fought and defeated Vorik, which seemed to ease things. (Vorik had declared a ritual Vulcan marriage proposal to her when he first started going through the condition.)
Weren't there other Vulcans on Voyager?
^ The only ones we ever saw were Tuvok and Vorik.
To answer the original question, I would like to see an ummarried couple, or triad or Denobulan type family etc with children as much as I would like to see the same family with married parents. Not at all unless it has something important to do with the plot. Were the little girl's parents in STID married? I don't know and I don't care.
I'd rather them spend time showing a woman captain/commander who wasn't someone's girlfriend or Admiral's daughter. And only that too if it adds to the plot of the movie.
In addition to Tuvok and Vorik there was also this female officer.
One should note that when Vorik and B'Elanna fought, it was because both were Vulcan males, or were deluded into thinking they were. We know from "Amok Time" already that a suitably violent fight clears the heads of males. Rules dictate a fight to the death, but rules can be waived, and the VOY episode shows that neither side really needs to see the other dead in order to come out of the haze.
Once the heads are cleared, there doesn't seem to be any immediate urge for mating, either in the bride-choosing sense or the bride-mounting sense.
Despite a variety of episodes tackling pon farr and plak tow from the male and female angles, we still don't really know what it is all about, down deep. Back in "Amok Time", sensibilities of the time dictated describing it as an urge to "find" a mate, and there was no talk about actual copulation or any such physicality. Intriguingly, later episodes have taken perhaps too much for granted and have never actually verified the role of sex in all this, nor have they laid in canon stone such beliefs as a continuing seven-year cycle for Vulcans who have already married; a seven-year cycle for females; or a relationship between the seven-year male cycle and the bearing of children (or indeed having of sex).
Separate names with a comma.