Lost 5x07: "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"

Discussion in 'Lost' started by Agent Richard07, Feb 25, 2009.

?

Grade the episode...

  1. Excellent

    67.1%
  2. Above Average

    24.7%
  3. Average

    5.5%
  4. Below Average

    2.7%
  5. Poor

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Hyperspace05

    Hyperspace05 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2005
    Above Average - Mostly due to the Locke awesomeness factor.

    As far as what side is evil - Widmore or Ben - Both are 'bad guys'. And I suspect that Locke will lead a "3rd faction" to prevent either of them from gaining control of the island.
     
  2. Hunter X

    Hunter X Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Arrghman beat me to my theory on why Ben killed Locke. :p

    I think Ben's original plan was to use Locke to get the Oceanic Six back to the island, as he knew they were destined to go back and as long as he was in on the circumstances, he hitch a ride--his main objective. The only problem for Ben probably could've manipulated everyone into going back the way we saw him to so, other than Sun, as she wanted to kill him. However, he could use Locke to get to her. But when he finds out that Jin is still alive and that Locke has the ring as proof, he realizes that he can use this information to get Sun back. He knew Locke needed to go back as well, but as long as he was alive, he was now connected to Widmore. Safer to bring him back as a corpse.
     
  3. chrisspringob

    chrisspringob Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Location:
    North Ryde, NSW
    I thought there might be something more than that. Jack defensively says something like "I'm not going back. How many times do I have to tell you?"...or something like that, after the *first* time Locke asks him. I was wondering if Locke had already visited him before this encounter, or something.

    Other issues:

    - So what exactly is Locke's status now? Did the Island actually bring him back to life, and he's 100% alive? If so, then I guess that would argue in favor of the same thing having happened to Christian, meaning that maybe Christian isn't just some kind of projection or something, as some had speculated in the past.

    - How exactly does the timeline work re: Widmore's departure from the Island? He tells Locke that he was expelled by Ben, after having led the Others for decades. But Widmore had to have fathered Penny some time in the 1970s. Ben was just a kid back then. So was Penny born on the Island? She can't have spent much time there, or she'd remember it as an adult. Or maybe she *does* remember it, and just isn't telling Desmond for whatever reason? Or maybe Widmore is just lying?
     
  4. chrisspringob

    chrisspringob Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Location:
    North Ryde, NSW
    Oh yeah.....and in "There's No Place Like Home", Jack tells Ben something like "Bentham told me that you were off the Island", but we don't see that happen in this ep. So that's another argument in favor of Locke having had more than one run-in with Jack.......either that, or it's just a plot hole.

    Edit: Final thought: WTF must people in the outside world be thinking is going on after Ajira 316 crashes? A flight just happens to have (nearly) all of the Oceanic 6 on it, and they just happen to crash again? Imagine all the conspiracy theories.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  5. John Picard

    John Picard Vice Admiral Admiral

    EXCELLENT. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out, especially with Benjamin Linus.
     
  6. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Above average. I was pleasantly surprised by this episode. I was growing weary of the mainland story and this episode seemed like it would be backtracking over the mainland stuff. It's a tribute their storytelling abilities that this one kept my interest.

    There was some new stuff (the new plane crash survivors) and surprising twists (how John died), and things are put in a new light. It was not a knock-out episode but it was thoroughly entertaining and it seemed to add to the ongoing storyline. A very solid above average. (To have been an excellent it would've had to move the plot forward by answering questions, not just raising new ones.)

    Mr Awe
     
  7. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    I gave it an above average too. But, no, the speed of covering Jeremy Bentham's life was not a problem. They got that one just right. The mainland stuff was getting a bit worn. If they dragged it out, it would've just detracted. It was great that we got some new stuff on the island to look forward to. That definitely added to this story and would've been a loss to cut it to elaborate more on John's mainland adventures.

    Mr Awe
     
  8. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    At this point, I don't think either is good. They each have their own, individual agenda. They both are manipulating others to try to reach their personal goals. And, both are attempting to manipulate the island's will to their own ends. "I'll help you get your people back to the island." "No, *I'll* help you!"

    It's a struggle between the 2 to get back in good graces with the island. Everyone else is caught between them and the island.

    Mr Awe
     
  9. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    Is reincarnation what makes Locke special?

    Does Hurley & the numbers affect probability?

    Is Walt a precog?

    Is that what makes each of them special?
     
  10. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Re: the timing of Widmore's exile

    I'm sure that Widmore had a cover life off the Island for decades, just as we know Ben routinely visited the outside world and had fifty passports. It was during this time that he created the Widmore Corporation and fathered Penny. Then, I would imagine in 1992 in the Purge, Ben conned him into Donkey Wheeling the Island. Once Ben proved his worthiness to the Others with his participation in the Purge, they sent him to Jacob's Cabin to get "further instructions". Ben, realizing only he can could hear Jacob, played his card and claimed that Jacob said for Widmore to Donkey Wheel the Island so Dharma couldn't find it again. And thus Ben became the leader of the Others and kept Jacob a prisoner. This is why, when Locke is taken to see Jacob, Jacob says "help me", and why Ben tries to kill Locke because Jacob spoke to him.

    Uh, this reminds me, I'm so pissed we haven't seen Jacob since 4X1. Seeing Christian just is not as exciting.
     
  11. LitmusDragon

    LitmusDragon Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2002
    Location:
    The Barmuda Triangle
    So whats going to happen to Ben now that he's returned to the Island? Didn't he say in the season 4 finale that he could not return once he'd donkey-wheeled? Presumably this is why Widmore can't return as well.

    I'm not sure if this is a plot hole, Ben being a liar again, or if there will be actual consequences.

    Was Charlotte's death earlier in the season setting a precedent for what happens to people who return against the Island's wishes?
     
  12. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    We saw Christian in the cabin in 4x01, not Jacob. I don't think we've seen Jacob since season 3.
     
  13. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    We saw Jacob's eye for a split second in 4X1. When Hurley looks in the window at Christian in the rocking chair, Jacob's face appears at the window suddenly looking at him.
     
  14. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 1999
    Location:
    Tatoinne
    Excellent.

    I don't think Ben or Widmore are good. They are fighting for control of the Island and its incredible powers. Nobody should have control of the Island.

    In the final episode, I expect Jack to use the Frozen Donkey Wheel to send the Island someplace where nobody can follow...for that to happen, we'd need a bit more info on the "rules" of how it moves, but plenty of time for that.

    It's great the way they can make Oahu look like anyplace, even Tunisia. :D

    My tape cut out at the very end, when the new guy was describing what happened during the crash to Locke. He was about to say something about Hurley - lemme guess, all the people who were "supposed" to return vanished in front of his eyes? Which would finally explain how so many of them survived the 815 crash - they didn't crash, they were teleported to the beach (unnecessary this time since the crash looked like a survivable crash-landing rather than a catastrophic mid-air break-up).

    Someday they really do need to show us what precisely happened during the 815 crash. Kate claims to remember the whole thing.
     
  15. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2001
    Location:
    Bonney Lake, WA
    More or less. New Guy said that everyone was accounted for except those who disappeared and those who were injured. When Locke inquired about the latter group, New Guy took him to them and they find Ben there.

    Incidentally, Ben acting against the island's wishes totally explains the whole tumor thing.
     
  16. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 1999
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The other big question I forgot about, Widmore said there was a war coming. Between who? Him and Ben? Sounds too small. The outside world coming for the Island's miracle powers? Is Widmore trying to protect the Island from the outside world, which is the exact opposite of what Ben said he was trying to do? Is a third, heretofore unrevealed, party?
     
  17. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    How big does a war need to be?

    Widmore & Ben are both powerful men that have resources
     
  18. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    How do you know it's Jacob? It might be, it's just that as far as I know, we've never established who it was in these discussions, and I've never seen any source telling us who it was. I do remember a lot of us agreeing that it looked like Desmond though, even if it wasn't.
     
  19. jamestyler

    jamestyler Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    I thought that - and if Widmore is telling the truth and he even has his groupie to help him guide people towards their destiny, it's plausible. I also wondered if he's been following the survivors, if he'd been following Desmond too and only pretended to have no idea where he and Penny were, continuing the grudge to keep them same from Ben.

    Good question - I never thought of that. Though I assume Franks gone to search for everyone they left behind. On a similar note... the boat Team Faraday found in the future, could that be Franks? And the boat following them be the 316'ers trying to capture them?

    Walt's vision was that the 316 crew were trying to hurt Locke, while we've still to see that unfold, it might be logical to conclude that Ben might manipulate them (or maybe in retaliation of what they learn from Ben and/or Locke) so they go batshit crazy.

    I was wondering if that would come up - it's annoying me now as the only logical reason I can think for Paulo and Nikki to come in and die so quickly would be to explain that drug.

    Other thoughts... Good episode again - the highlight for me was John giving up on himself and losing hope. I had assumed they were going to twist and contrive the story so John's death was vital to them getting home, but instead he fell back into being the old self loathing Locke and wanted to kill himself. Good stuff.

    Plus the loose ends with Helen, the porter, Walt, why Jack was flying back and forth in the first flash forward and a few other things.. including Ben again hovering between being good and evil, only to show his true colours by killing Locke. Did Richard see it coming, was Widmore telling the truth? Does Ben have any idea that Locke would come back to life on the Island? Does that mean Christian is alive, and not just a Jacob image?

    Now with the two camps, one in the present(ish) with Ben and Locke and one in the past with everyone else - I'm yet again looking forward to whats coming next.
     
  20. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    At the same time, we've never had a sourse telling us it wasn't either.
    We just have to assume another male in the cabin besides Christian might be Jacob.