Long-Winded Treknology: The Original Series

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Whorfin, Feb 26, 2009.

  1. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    May 27, 2007
    Which will just exacerbate the current problem. My advice is that if you are going to make demands that your own work not be critically discussed that you stop doing so to other people's work.

    Your conclusions are very interesting. It doesn't change the fact that between your sketches and AS we are not talking about minor adjustment issues but meters. If you aren't aware of that fact, I'm doing you a favor. I assume you are aware of the fact but believe AS (and anyone else that disagrees is wrong). In terms of your criticism of AS's vertical window placement (ship-wide) you can point me to the appropriate posts, but I have a very good grip on the graphics you currently have available and other than noting a horizontal discrepancy between AS and CC I don't really see anything that has a bearing. AFAIK, you're doing the 11' study, you've stopped releasing information for some time, and your analysis of your 11' study findings and the differences with AS haven't been released. I have ignored your 33" studies because its not the same model. I have done my best to figure things out but if the basis of properly interpreting your work requires that every post you have ever written anywhere on the internet must be read, in case something somewhere was overlooked, you might want to create an FAQ.

    I believe the proper legal term for this is "argumentative", i.e., spurious. If by a "massive flood of details" you mean showing clear-cut diagrams and explaining what was found and how the conclusions were arrived at, then guilty as charged. But the plot is there, spoilers and all.

    I think the proper terms is imaginative. If you're going to charge me a psychiatrist fee at the least you could provide a comfortable couch. The changes you are discussing are irrelevant to the studies, unless you mean that those changes included adding windows at ceiling and floor height. The conceit of the show is that its a real ship. The model has no deck plans, the fictional ship that the characters inhabit does, its as simple as that. I'll be glad to look at the possibility that the source material is wrong, which is the point of specifying the source material and stating that the study is confined to that playing field. On the other hand, if what you mean is that your method of analysis is the only acceptable one, then you are just incorrect.

    The analysis is meant, ultimately, to be interpretable as scaleless for most of the studies. However, most readers are not going to be satisfied with that, and for the 24-deck study it was impossible, so the traditional figure of 947 feet was used, as it was dictated by MJ. If one wants to assume that the ship is 1080 feet long, or 200, the scale can be adjusted easily by a simple conversion. I'm answering expected questions by providing provisional answers.

    Initially I expected that a simple resizing based on overall length was not going to work. But repeatedly I found that the primary hull was correctly sized compared to overall length. Bow issues showed up with MJ 1967 because the bow is actually curved not simply angled, so I chose to match the portion that best fit the reconstruction of the model. Overall length of the primary hull is not necessarily the best measure because the structure of the disk is covered by the impulse engine housing and not everyone is going to interpret it the same. So yes, overall length, radius from the Bridge center to the bow, bow to hanger fantail, etc. are all checked. This is stated in many of the reconstructions, and if it is not its generally because "fitting" was so trouble free describing it slipped my mind. Assuming there were errors, each pixel of horizontal error would result in a 0.041% (1/2420) error vertically, spread out over all the decks (i.e., much less than one vertical pixel error).

    Of course, one could simply use a MKI eyeball on the diagrams to check for problems before bringing forward the complaint, but that wouldn't be as much fun.

    As mentioned, the comparisons are for the most part scaleless, and deck heights are estimates, primarily intended to give a general idea of head room. In this case, if you are correct that the ship is meant to be 932 feet long instead of 947 feet long this makes a -1.584% difference in deck height. So if I am using the worst techniques, I am only off by about 1.5%.

    In general, the argument that my procedures are error-prone and responsible for spurious results are themselves spurious. First, they ignore my actual detailed procedures, as stated. Second, there appears to have been no attempt to confirm that errors actually occurred. Third, even if errors did occur no attempt at estimating the significance or magnitude of said errors appears to have been attempted. Whether this was accidental or a case of foul rhetoric is unknown, though I assume the former.

    They are conclusion on a preliminary design, as clearly stated on the image, and in the file name of the image, and I sincerely apologize for unintentionally ommitting it from the title of the study (I hadn't intended to publish it at the time, and so it wasn't as polished as normal). If I could correct it I could, but I can't edit it. Feel free to PM a mod and I'll agree to a correction. Or I will make the attempt at your request.

    Well, considering not so long ago you and everyone else were using AS and CC do demonstrate how "wrong" FJ's design was, it seems a bit ironic that you now object to your own work, the most recently available full version that is, getting a similar treatment.

    Then there's no need to get overly defensive about it. Its preliminary, its labeled as such in more than one place, I'm not pretending otherwise. You're welcome to move your decks wherever you want before the final release.

    No, but it might have something to do with you being offended by another poster, terminating your updates, and only recently relenting. Its hard to know what you aren't told. Or it might be that I missed the post where you explained that your internal diagrams were no longer based on MJ 1967 or Phase II and now were solely based on the 11' model, or maybe I just misunderstood what you said at some point. But my understanding now is the same as when I made the statement (which I believe you in turn misunderstood) and the things you've said in response have largely vindicated it (you carted out the pressure diagram and Phase II ASAP). But it doesn't have to turn into a conspiracy theory.

    Dave, I'm not locking you down. You, in turn are clearly locking AS and CC out as inaccurate references that should no longer be used. And its not my ideas, its from TMoST, which as the author clearly states is based on the Writer's Guide and interviews with the production staff. I didn't jump in a time machine and change the book.

    ??? I have no clue here.

    Given that the Hull Pressure diagram, MJ 1967, and Phase II all contradict each other that's a pretty bold statement. Heck, the pressure diagram even manages to contradict itself, by showing two different conditions of the ship at the same time!

    They are a reference. CC will be another reference. Your plans when released will be another. Your assumption that your work is better, and seemingly without flaws, is a more interesting claim in my book. I didn't get the memo that everyone else's work was made obsolete by yours and is not to be used. Did anyone else?

    I'm not relying on anything. You don't seem to understand the process by which new information should be processed and vindicated. Comparison with existing data is a first step. Your insistence that your own (unreleased) work is the only reference by which you should be judged is an interesting concept. My own training is scientific. In general, anyone that argues that their new hypothesis (invalidating the previously held ones) is correct because their own research says it is so, and that external comparisons with the competing theories isn't a valid test... well, lets just say it doesn't go over very well.

    "Forensic Treknology" is a similar process. Observers make difficult observations under less than ideal conditions without the proper equipment. They analyze the data and form a hypothesis (in the form of plans, etc.). The next step is to compare their work with what has come before and any other competitors. Generally, I think that 'the young pup' doesn't get to start out as 'top dog'. In this case before it is born. You may be the new standard of comparison, but vigorous proclamations to that effect doesn't get you there. At least it shouldn't. This is not to say that your work is not the best, or that it won't be vindicated in the end.

    I'm not, on the other hand you might want to stop putting words in other people's mouths.

    You keep talking about my assumptions but you don't seem to be as talkative about your own. There are more than a few, and if any of them are incorrect it would be more than an inconvenience for vetting your work. I would strongly suggest you desist from your normal "blitz" attack response to issues, concerns, even questions about your work and start treating the people on this forum as equals, as colleagues, and perhaps even friends. That's what I'm trying to be, and I apologize that somehow I'm not doing an adequate job.

    I'm aware there are errors in AS and CC. Perhaps I am not aware of all of them. Considering that at least one of these researchers has declined to accept your own criticism and make changes to their plans it would seem fair to say there is not universal agreement by the experts with you on all points. On the other hand, the discrepancy between the way you handle their work and your own leads me to wonder if you have sufficient objectivity to be the sole reference we are allowed.

    Now, that I've answered all your accusations, can we try to get back to being on civil terms?


  2. Shaw

    Shaw Commodore Commodore

    Feb 21, 2007
    Twin Cities
    After writing more than 2000 words in response to the bizarre notions displayed here, I realize that it comes down to a simple reoccurring theme... you don't actually master the facts first. You haven't read anything I've written, and just want to use the pretty pictures.

    I've tried in the past to nicely correct you when you misstated my positions... and now I have two full posts of someone who is way out in left field.

    What I found, time and again while composing a response was that if you had just read the thread, the details would have been clear. But you made assumptions, and those were how you were going to go forward (mainly because it was easier than researching what was really there).

    I'm going to respond specifically to one point because it truly paints you as being way out of the loop on all this...
    Please quote me representing it as anything like this.

    For me, my research is my research. If I thought that I had the only correct public reconstruction then why would I be spending time and energy making it deconstructable for others to use in their reconstructions? Why would I take the time to do overall deck layouts for a 20 deck ship at about 947', a 24 deck layout for a ship at about 947', a 20 deck layout for a ship at about 1080', and a 24 deck layout for a ship at about 1080'? Why would I take the time to make all of my work open (as in copyright open) for people to copy it for their derivative works?

    And most importantly, why are people who don't agree with many of my assertions on where things go waiting for me to finish key aspects of my research?

    If I was so certain that my work was the only correct public reconstruction, then why did I state that I was sure that it wasn't. And state that others will come along later and improve on what I'm doing today. The only thing I can say I've done is not repeat the mistakes of others... but I'm sure I'll introduce all new ones that people will find. I was actually hoping that you would find something useful for me, but instead what I got was that you were mischaracterizing things that were discussed at length and giving me nothing but a massive waste of my time.

    To say that I am disappointed in you is an understatement. I was hoping for something new, something better, something helpful... and what I got was that you were working from a CliffNotes knowledge of the subject and wasting my time having to cover ground that has already been covered before.

    You can rant at your imaginary version of me all you want, but if you can't even get the basics right (about my work or how I've presented it), there is no need for me to read anything else you have to say.


    Oh, and not that it matters much, but my name is David, not Dave. Most of my friends know this, and you make my wife cringe when she reads your posts referring to me as Dave. :eek:
  3. JNG

    JNG Chief of Staff, Starfleet Command

    Sep 29, 2001
    "Look, Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over."

    "I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you."
  4. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    May 27, 2007
    Due to circumstances (that presumably I am not wanted to publicly disclose), there is no point (from my perspective at least) to discussing this matter further. Considering the things that have been said, I certainly agree that's for the best.

    Dave is extremely intelligent, talented, and very dedicated to Star Trek. Its unfortunate that we can't agree to disagree on any legitimate points, or -- better still -- to find some common ground.

    Its interesting that simply pointing out that different interpretations of the ship/model/plans can/do exist has led to this result. These sort of situations are an example of why 99.9% of my Treknology has been a solitary endeavor and the remaining 0.1% is too often immensely dissatisfying.

    When I was young, I was able to watch late night re-runs of Flash Gordon and other old serials, and of course a lot of black and white movies. Whether because of that exposure, or because of the era I grew up in, I can still appreciate those old films, old radio shows, old novels, old comic books, etc. Flaws and all. I don't think that more recent generations have had similar exposure or can have a similar appreciation, and what excites them as viewers is not what the old media was about. The "old" materials I speak of date from the 1950s and earlier. Today, TOS, is getting about as old as those things were to me when I was young. After the lackluster attempt at TOS Remastered, I wonder if it has succeeded at bringing the series to a new generation or just added new boxes to the shelves of old -- getting older -- fans? Will the original Star Trek be just as meaningless and silly as today's generation sees Flash Gordon or Universal's great horror movies? Will a reboot "solve" the problem?

    So, as I see it, its up to the fans -- if anyone can keep what the original TOS was about alive, keep it meaningful, keep it from being obsolete. People that don't want to take but give. People who will make fan films and fan series, people who will work into the wee hours of the morning making blueprints and technical manuals -- that hopefully will be freely available to all. People of immense talents that create incredible 3D models, if only to generate a few screenshots or wallpaper for desktops. These people will always understand Star Trek better than business types that are just managing a franchise for maximum profit.

    But the problem is to maximize these efforts we need to work together. And people don't often work well together. We are egotistical and irritable. We are opinionated and all too often obsessed. We all feel frustrated and tired in the world we live in, a world that is not Gene Roddenberry's world and seems to get further from it on most days. We are all these negative things and more. But we have to make a choice, that we are not going to be these things today.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  5. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    May 27, 2007
    Praetor (et al.),

    Did I answer your concerns about my techniques in a satisfactory manner? Or are there still concerns.
  6. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 18, 2004
    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    I have no problem, personally. So, are you carrying on then?
  7. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    May 27, 2007
    Sorry for the delay in replying.

    "Circuits are overloaded, Cap'n!"

    Shortly I hope to have another contribution -- for now its just small game in other threads as I deal with Real World issues. I don't quite know where Dave got the idea that I was going to stop posting, but his arguments against me weren't quite that convincing on this end.
  8. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Aug 26, 2007
    Where ya been, man? What's up, How'd you like (or dislike) the new movie?

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