Locutus and Ben Sisko

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by RoJoHen, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I get the purpose of including Picard in the DS9 premiere as a way to pass the torch, but what exactly would you say was gained by the angst Sisko had towards Picard? For story purposes, why did Jennifer need to be killed by the Borg? Could she not simply have died another way that didn't require shoehorning Locutus and Wolf 359 into the story?

    It was kind of neat in that episode, but in retrospect it seems very odd considering neither Picard nor the Borg ever make another appearance on the show.
     
  2. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    I think it was a deliberate attempt to make Sisko more of a maverick than the Picard mould. There was a tension between Sisko and his masters and this was part of the scene setting.

    Considering his later ambivalence about following the absolutely correct Starfleet procedure on many things, you would have thought he would have had more compassion for Picard's situation, given that Picard WAS archetypal Starfleet, royally fucked over by the Borg.
     
  3. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Funnily enough, I'd guess that they were actually trying to avoid the sense that they were shoehorning things in; those things being Picard and the Enterprise. As you say, they clearly wanted Picard there to launch the new show and provide some welcome familiarity/reassurance. The Jennifer/Wolf 359 backstory was, I'd hazard a guess, intended to justify Picard's presence in the story beyond that - having established that the good captain would be in the pilot, I assume they wanted to tie him to the new lead in some fashion. Get something out of it other than "here's Picard. So...er, have fun..." ;) Having Sisko's wife die at Wolf 359 must have seemed a good way to do that, a way that provoked a bit of drama and avoided the pat and obvious connection that Sisko was some old friend of Picard.
     
  4. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Honestly, I think Picard's prior experience with the Bajorans (which the episode already references) would have been enough to justify his presence in the pilot without needing the Borg stuff. He would just be a senior officer giving Sisko his new orders.
     
  5. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Good point. Perhaps it was more that they wanted to connect Picard to Sisko in some way?
     
  6. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    It's a continuity thing, obviously. I understand why it wasn't possible but one or two crossover episodes would have been cool. I liked O'Brien's transfer there and of course Worf's arrival just made DS9 for me but still. Seeing the Enterprise berthed there now and then would have been mighty fine.
     
  7. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Perhaps. I just find it funny now in hindsight. I know that the Defiant was originally built to fight the Borg. Was DS9 planning to have the Borg pop up from time to time, and if so, what made them scrap that idea?
     
  8. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Character development for Sisko. He started off the episode as this angry, unhappy man who couldn't find his place in the galaxy and was considering his position in Starfleet; he'd been given an assignment that was hardly the envy of officers everywhere.

    His interactions with the Prophets snapped him out of his fugue and gave him purpose. By the end of the episode, he was more content and eager to begin his command.

    To show that development, there had to be some traumatic event in Sisko's past, rather than just making him a grumpy old man. So linking it with Wolf 359, also probably the nadir of Picard's life was an inspired way to go - Picard served a purpose in the episode, rather than just a 'hey, look, the guy from the previous show' token cameo.

    And it also established DS9's own tone. After the no-conflict TNG crew, it came as a shock to see Sisko being outright rude to the beloved Picard. It was also a creatively risky step - audiences may not have appreciated Sisko's attitude to such a popular character, particularly when we (unlike Sisko) knew how much angst the events of BOBW had caused Jean-Luc.
     
  9. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    Any officer worth his salt would have known what happened to Captain Picard.
     
  10. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He may have known what happened as a matter of fact, but emotionally, as a husband who lost his wife and the father of a small boy who lost his mother, he couldn't get past what had happened 'because of' Picard. Knowing something in your head is one thing, being able to cope with it in your heart is another.

    This was the writers' way of helping set up DS9 and its crew as being different from Rodenberry's 'perfect' 24th century humans.
     
  11. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    The idea that Sisko couldn't see beyond his prejudice undermines his ability to be a competent leader. He obviously couldn't be seen to be incompetent from the first episode so it was written that way for another reason.
     
  12. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, here's what the Wikipedia guide to the episode says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissary_(Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine)

    From memory alpha:

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Emissary_(episode)

    So I'm really not sure what you're taking issue with. But maybe you could, you know, say what you think the reason is instead of just saying what it isn't.
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    No, the Defiant came to help with the threat from the Dominion. They probably figures that a starship tough enough to fit the Borg would be good to have in case the Dominion attacked. And they were right...
     
  14. Knight Templar

    Knight Templar Commodore

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    Interestingly enough, one of the behind the scenes books said that the DS9 producers considered several scripts that would've featured the Borg on Deep Space Nine but never found one they really liked.
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I always liked the cameo of Picard in Emissary. Not only does it proverbially pass the torch as previously mentioned, but it serves two other purposes.

    One is to give a bit of insight into Picard, you get to see how people outside his circle of acquaintances and people he's comfortable around react to his Borg past and that haunted look on Picard's face. Between Avery Brooks angry glare and Stewart's face deflating so much is said in that one snip without words.

    Two is to establish that hey, Sisko isn't like Picard and this isn't the hunky dory TNG crew that sings kumbaya in the meeting room. Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?
     
  16. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Yes, I realize that the Defiant was there to fight the Dominion. I'm asking, from a writer's standpoint, why mention the Borg at all? You could have just easily called it a new battleship without saying anything about the Borg, unless there were in fact plans to have the Defiant one day fight the Borg on the show (and yes, I realize that she does eventually fight the Borg in First Contact).
     
  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    But given the Federation's (until that point) anti-warship policy, there would need to be some justification for it.

    And there were plans for the Defiant to fight the Borg. Maybe not from the writers, but certainly from an in-universe perspective.
     
  18. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Right, but I'm specifically asking about the writer's perspective.
     
  19. green dodge

    green dodge Commodore Commodore

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    ^^
    What Tiberius already said.
    Not sure what confuses you about it.

    Having them design, build, test and deploy a new type of ship all within three months after the encounter with the Dominion would have been pushing it. So they needed to establish why Starfleet already had a warship, hence... Borg mention.
     
  20. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    I always thought the purpose of these discussions was to put forward new ideas, not quote other people's as some kind of unbeatable trump card.