Lit nacelle trenches?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Mark 2000, Oct 18, 2013.

  1. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    So I'm considering some modelling, and the R2 1/350 Enterprise allows for lighting the nacelle trenches. Not really something I'm crazy to do, but I've read a bunch of people say that was the original intention of Gene and Matt. Some even say they wanted it blue, which to me sounds like B&B era revisionism. Is there any source to this? I can't seem to find it if there is.
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Have you tried looking in the Trek Tech or Fan Art forums?
     
  3. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A fair number of modermakers in Fan Art forum, and one of the best places to get info on the models is The RFP (Replica Prop Forum), but they only open registration for new members periodically.

    My guess is there was never any intent to light the inboard grilles of the model's nacelles, especially since only one nacelle actually had the trench at all. The nacelles are hollow from just aft of the pylons to the end caps, so if they'd wanted lights in there they could've done so.
     
  4. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Also, the inboard nacelles being lit is an idea that originated on the refit for TMP, when Richard Taylor was the VFX art director for Abel. They'd only be on when the ship was at warp, and a rather elaborate dimensional light effect was going to be playing out between the two facing inboards, along with other fx showing a warp shockwave/bubble around the whole vessel.
     
  5. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    Here's a thread on Hobby Talk where some people are convinced there was a memo talking about the lighting, one person mentioning the color "green". No mention of a source, though - http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=387496

    Maurice, interesting that you say there's no trench on the other nacelle. In a lot of pics there certainly was what FJ would call a *giggle* "inward flow sensor".
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  6. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think Jefferies might have had the idea first for Phase II.

    LINK
     
  7. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    The TOS fx guys wouldn't dream of making it blue, because that would foul up the blue screen process.

    In the original fx, un-remastered, there's a shot of the Enterprise leaving orbit where the starboard nacelle has a jagged, wavering transparent section. That happened because white stage lights were hitting the blue backdrop and sending blue "spill light" onto the shiny metal nacelle.

    It was a simple accident the ruined the shot, and the fact that they used it anyway says something about the time and money constraints they were under. I think it showed up as stock footage in at least two episodes.
     
  8. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Blue spill doesn't necessarily work the way you're describing it, but you are correct that they're never have used blue on any part of the model when shooting bluescreen elements. The could get away with it later once motion control photography came in because then you could shoot the matte pass on bluescreen and then shoot the model with the internal lighting on as a separate pass.
     
  9. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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  10. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I like the option on the model, and if I ever build another one, I'm gonna use it. Whether Roddenberry wanted it or not, it does look kewl.
     
  11. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    Zap, I'm pretty sure a lot of it has to do with the fact that in SD and even b/w it wasn't apparent. I don't know how they were checking the footage, but it couldn't have been on a wall projector. I never say all the blue screen errors on the E until I saw the HD footage.
     
  12. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    No, the blue screen errors were visible in first run, because I think I know which shot Zap is talking about without even checking the photo. I started reading about blue screen in the 1960s (even ordering a professional trade book), because I couldn't figure out how they got the Enterprise in space. I knew it wasn't on wires, I knew it wasn't a cartoon or stop-motion animation, but I didn't know anything about blue screen or optical printing in those days. Now we can do it in 5 seconds on home computers.

    Things we now take for granted were closely guarded secrets back then.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  13. Mark 2000

    Mark 2000 Captain Captain

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    If you say so.
     
  14. Captain Rob

    Captain Rob Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd like to use both blue and white on the nacelle trenches. Use blue for idle and low power. Then fade out the blue and fade in the white as the warp power increases. The same with the impulse engines. Use red for low power and fade out with yellow fading in as power increases. Use full yellow for full impulse.
     
  15. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    More like everybody said so. Geez, when I was a kid and TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY was rerunning, we'd be flinching, thinking of the leaving orbit /engine eaten by bad matte and the shake round sun followup. It looks bad on a 13" b&w set.
     
  16. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    Nah, Melakon and Trevanian are right. We saw the wavering, transparent nacelle defect for years on our old TVs. HD and a big flatscreen just make it stand out even more. :bolian:
     
  17. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Blue screen spill is frequently caused caused by having the model too close to the screen, the reflectivity of the object (why ILM dulled down the refit), or improper lighting. If you overdrive the light on the bluescreen and don't put enough light on the model to overcome any bounce, you're asking for trouble. Also, lab work can improve/degrade a matte, so chances are they eyeballed the shot and it looked ok, but when they went to the matte-pass step it wasn't as clean as it could have been.
     
  18. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    I followed the development of the R2 1/350 Enterprise on Hobbytalk as well as received updates on the kit's progress (prior to release) because I was one of the 1701 Club members to get a Premire version of the kit. Gary Kerr, who researched the TOS E for the model (and is now working on the Galileo shuttlecraft kit) mentioned that there had been some talk of adding a light effect to the inboard sides of the nacelles, but it was deemed to expensive to go back and rework the 11 footer so the idea was dropped. It doesn't look like they were hellbent on doing it, but for the sake of completion R2 decided to include the option for lit nacelles for those who might like to explore the "what if" option. I don't recall a specific colour being mentioned so it really is up to the individual modeller.

    Many years ago I played with the idea in Photoshop and did some images with blue or cyan lit nacelles along the inboard trenches. To me it just never looked right, but then I could easily be conditioned to seeing it the way it has always been onscreen.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  19. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    On some of the Galileo 7 shots back in the 60s, you could even make out the garbage mattes against the starfield backgrounds. I think they tried to clean it up a little bit, but in those first season episodes, they were still trying to adapt motion picture techniques to television and it didn't always work.
     
  20. mach7

    mach7 Commander Red Shirt

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    I've seen the memo, I can't remember where. I think it was from Roddenberry to Justman asking how much it would cost to add the lights to the trench. I think it was around $300 back then and the money was not available.