Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Albertese, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Does that mean that this individual Praetor (competing with other Praetors) can unilaterally start a war for all of the Romulan Empire to get sucked into?

    COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.

    Or is the Romulan Praetor the actual emperor?
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    That would be a classic thing for Praetors to do. The Roman Empire was constantly in a state of war against all sorts of opponents, especially in the "peaceful" times (where peace arose from bountiful war booty), and it didn't really take the deliberations of the government to get those wars started...

    This is possible as well, if he's the equivalent of the Roman "Praetor Maximus", the alternate name for the dictator-for-a-day that was elected to solve major problems and ruled sovereign through a crisis. OTOH, Q once referred to the Romulan Empress, suggesting a more straightforward title was in use at least at some point of the Romulan history.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Sorry, but remembering references to "praetor" in TNG it sounded like he was the head of the Romulan Star Empire and the producers probably went for a title that definitely had Roman allusions (i.e. "praetor" instead of "emperor").

    @ publiusr

    Sounds like a great idea to me and is possibly the analogy the producers had in mind! :techman:

    The whole Romulan mission in "Balance of Terror" reminded me a lot of the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo during WW II.

    While a bigger Romulan carrier ship would have been detected, a small few man fighter (...) could have penetrated the Earth Outpost defense line and did so.

    This could / would also explain the sole use of impulse power for that small vessel if there was a warp-capable mothership waiting to pick it up upon return. Ain't that an explanation that could make everyone happy? ;)

    Bob
     
  4. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    It wrong because it stupid.

    The Romulans have to have some way of going faster than light or they would not get anyway let alone be able to start a d earth/romulan war!
     
  5. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^ QFT.

    The Romulans had to of had a warp drive, otherwise they would be essentually a meaningless fourth rate power at best.

    The events seen in ST: Enterprise would make no sense without the Romulans possessing the means to travel reasonable quickly between star systems.

    Was it ever clearly stated that the Klingons obtain their cloaking device from the Romulans?

    During TNG, starfleet could on occasion detect cloaked Romulan ships, but (iirc) couldn't do the same with cloaked Klingon ships. Suggesting that Romulan and Klingon cloaks work somehow differently, and are two separate inventions.

    The Dominion also possessed cloaking devices aboard their ships, and obviously didn't get their's from the Romulans.

    :)
     
  6. feek61

    feek61 Captain Captain

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    I agree it's stupid and I'm not talking about "real world" applications. I frickin' understand the distances involved; the speed of light; etc. I have studied astronomy for over 40 years; I get it! What I am saying is that in the land of TV production it was meant to be STL (after all guys, this is a TV show, not science). There is no disagreement here that it is not practical unless there was a FTL mothership someplace nearby but we didn't see that. I know what the script says, I know what the writers guide says and I know what is said in the episode and ALL of those things point to STL. Just because you think that is wrong doesn't change the facts.
     
  7. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    You could be right. I always thought that was due to whomever wrote the story for each episode.


    They did? When did this happen?

    --Sran
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When the Dominion ships used to emerge from the wormhole without DS9 realizing it, all they saw was the wormhole opening and closing without reason.

    :)
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    But as discussed, this is a completely separate issue from whether the ship in "BoT" has FTL or not. This particular vessel could be incapable of interstellar warfare, but this is of zero relevance because the vessel is vital in the first step towards interstellar warfare: breaking out of the chain of Earth fortresses. That part can be done by a sublight vessel, in the model where the distances on that mysterious map are very short.

    It's only "The Deadly Years" that gives this ship type significant FTL capabilities, certainly enough to discredit the "BoT" idea that the hero ship could run rings around the Romulan type. Evolution of the design or not? Well, even in "BoT", the hero ship does not outfly the enemy by much.

    It was never even clearly stated that there would have been an alliance between the two; the closest they ever come is in "Reunion", where Riker contemplates the possibility of a "new" alliance between the powers as the consequence of Duras duplicity.

    But did they? We never, uh, saw an invisible Dominion ship. This IMHO is good indication that they indeed operated cloakships, but it's certainly no proof.

    Jem'Hadar invisibility works very well at medium distances, and can be used to hide people, their clothing and their weapons alike, but whether it could hide ships in space...

    Oh, and almost forgot:

    But there are no references to Praetor in TNG.

    The highest leader referred to in TNG, apart from the obscure "Romulan Empress" thing, is the Proconsul. His exact slot in the hierarchy is unclear. In Roman terms, he'd be the Consul's representative in the provinces, the Consul being the very highest authority in the Republic; the representative's title survived the transition to the Empire and the discontinuation of the Consul position.

    DS9 is the show where Praetor is finally mentioned, in this intel briefing:

    Whether "the top post" means head of state or just what it says, a top post (that is, a highly placed job among others) is not semantically clear from the above. Again comparing to the Roman model, a Proconsul might become a Praetor; getting to serve as Proconsul would usually mean he had already been Consul previously, so any career move would be a move down anyway, and Praetor would be an attractive option. (In practice, you'd have to be a long-lived Romulan to enjoy such career succession, though.)

    In ST:NEM, Shinzon also assumes the title Praetor, through assassinating and succeeding another Praetor who presided over Senate sessions. We don't really learn whether Shinzon declared himself the absolute top leader, or whether he upheld the usual coup tradition where the Colonel who topples the civilian government just declares himself General...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    And it aload of crap. And if it not on the TV or movie screen its not official cannon anyway.

    Except some how they got to there destination? Ok maybe they had a mothership somewhere. But its pretty clear they didnt travel there from Romulus on there own at only sublight speeds as a ship that would take dozens of years to get from one system to the next is stragicaly useless against a Federation fleet of warp capable ships.

    Sometimes the startrek Writers and especially Gene Rodenberry had massive lapses in judgement and writting ability. When that happen its needs retconing or ignoreing.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The ship never tackled any Federation fleets, and we never got any evidence that it would have been supposed to. It existed to tackle Federation fortresses, and it tackled those very well.

    Within the confines of the episode, we got no reason to think that the trip from the RNZ to Romulus would be interstellar. Quite to the contrary, the trip involved passing by a comet that had a tail, suggesting that all the action was taking place deep insystem (supposedly in the system that held planets Romulus and Remus).

    It is only in TNG "The Enemy" that we first truly learn that the scale of things might be different. There, it takes a modern, definitely high-warp-capable Romulan warbird at least an hour to cross from the inner surface of the RNZ to the outer...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    Which makes me think the Romulans did have some sort of FTL capabilitys on there BOP.

    I liked what someone else on here said. Maybe it had a singlerity device like in the later series but as it was a new tecnology the Enterprise just couldnt detect it.
     
  13. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    That never actually happened. The opening and closing of the wormhole was due to a device placed near the communications relay on the wormhole's far side, giving the appearance that a cloaked fleet was coming through. Sisko managed to even find the officer responsible and had Kira put him on the Defiant before they came to Earth to help him stop Admiral Leyton.

    --Sran
     
  14. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Concise summary in a nutshell! And again proves my point that just because we didn't look at all the options (FTL mothership) we shouldn't jump to premature conclusions at the expense of the people that gave us Star Trek.

    I had already mentioned in this thread my astonishment, that the Romulan Commander wondered if they still had old style nuclear warheads on board. Shouldn't he know?

    If that ship had been travelling at sublight speeds for an extended period of time, surely the crew and its commander got to know every screw and bolt on his vessel on a first name basis.

    However, if the Romulan mission was just another WW II analogy (i.e. the Doolittle Raid), then apparently the ship was stripped of all expendable weight and the mission was prepared in such a haste that even the Romulan Commander (a "creature of duty") didn't learn whether they still had those nuclear warheads or not.

    Backpacked on an FTL mothership (at this point in time the Romulans might have only had bulky warp drive technology) the BoP was just dropped outside of Earth Outpost sensor range and then commenced its silent running.

    Whether the Romulans were able to develop new and smaller warp engines prior to "The Deadly Years" or got help from the Klingons remains speculation, but apparently they tested the new warp drive design immediately and - again - against the United Federation of Planets (they probably used a cloaking device again)

    And again, this Romulan ship was beaten by the USS Enterprise near Tau Ceti, only 11 light years from Earth!

    Hence my pet theory that UFP deliberately named and numbered subsequent ships after Kirk's Enterprise because its name and number carried a strong psychological message for the Romulans, who understandably were eager to take any Enterprise back home as a trophy.

    Just for the fun a quick summary of humiliations the Romulans suffered from Captain Kirk and the USS Enterprise

    • Defeated Praetor's finest and proudest flagship in the Neutral Zone at Stardate 1709.6
    • Defeated Romulan ship near Tau Ceti in the core region of the UFP (stardate unknown). Frustrating to have come that far and then perish
    • Outwitted Romulan patrol ships at Stardate 3579.4 by using the Corbomite bluff
    • Outwitted Romulan patrol ships and stole cloaking device mechanism at Stardate 5027.3
    Which is the one word that makes a Romulan loose his mind?
    "Kirk" :D


    Bob
     
  15. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not sure I agree with this. If something appears in a episode, it's best to figure out a way to wiggle it into continuity somehow. If necessary I would rather put somethings down to a mis-statement on the part of a character, than "retcon" it out of existence.

    Some fans want to retcon way too much out of the show, simply for the purpose of supporting their own position on a personal viewpoint.

    :)
     
  16. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Technically we don't know what the BOP was designed to fight against. Since the plasma bolt was quite capable of chasing down a warp speed Enterprise it stands to reason it was a warship capable of fighting against other FTL ships and stationary targets.

    The trip involved the Romulans leading the Enterprise into the nearest trap they could find which happens to be a comet. Given how fast ships can be at FTL, it is just as possible that the FTL flight passed near a star system and the Romulans diverted to the comet to gain cover.

    Plus, if they were strictly STL and fighting inside their own system then this line wouldn't work:
    COMMANDER: It is good we approach the Neutral Zone. Not too soon for me to see the stars of home. I know they are following.
    For the stars to change position or even to become visible again would imply that they're traveling greater distances than a single star system, IMO.
     
  17. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    True. And there's also the issue whether one is an advocate of GUT (Grand Unified Theory), which tends to overwrite "facts" from earlier Star Trek productions, or one who advocates that each series should be acknowledged with its own internal canon, regardless of what came later (which is why I approach the BoP subject strictly from a TOS point of view).

    @ blssdwlf

    There was an interesting thread where a Trek BBS member noted the elaborated style of Romulan dialogue which (indeed) was highly reminiscent of "Shakespeare talk".

    In this context "to see the stars of home" is probably rather Romulan poetry than a scientific statement, IMHO.

    Bob
     
  18. Mister_Atoz

    Mister_Atoz Commander Red Shirt

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    Agreed, while we're on the topic of fans who retcon and fans who don't, let's talk about fans who take some snippets of dialogue too literally...

    I for one took this statement to mean that Romulans literally live on the surface of stars :p
     
  19. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    No I agree. It some thing that should only be used when the writters have made a really really really dumb mistake. Like implying something completly impossible or really stupid.

    There are certain episodes were writers have droped the ball so badly like threshold and These are the voyages ect


    As for Romulans have only sublight speed. It is impossible end of. Even if that one ship only had litral impulse it would have to have been carried there by a warp ship. If they did not have faster than light they would never have left there system let alone been able to wage a instersteller war with Earth, Vulcan, Andoria and what ever the tellerite home system is called.
     
  20. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Careful! "Balance of Terror" is an analogy to the WWII scenario of an Anglosaxon destroyer hunting a (Japanese or German) submarine.
    In the latter case, the Romulan Commander was eager to see the planets of home, because "star" in old German can equally mean "planet". ;)

    @ Crazyewok

    Good Point! As a matter of fact the older Romulan makes a remark according to which him and the commander have seen "a hundred campaigns together". While not solid evidence (what kind of campaigns and against whom?) I think it does qualify to support your theory. :)

    Bob