Legal ?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by LordMudd, Jul 19, 2014.

  1. LordMudd

    LordMudd Commander Red Shirt

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    Knowing I am not the only former military person here...

    The military has a system for administering justice, the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice), and the JAG ( Judge Advocate General) is responsible for doing so, and, we know Starfleet has a JAG, from Court Martial and The Measure of A Man, which suddenly made me think- what would it be called in Star Trek, the UCSJ?

    CCC.
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or maybe just the Starfleet Code of Justice. As the poster below points out, if there's only Starfleet, then there's no need for a word like 'Uniform.'
     
  3. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    I have no idea what the the code would be called. It may not need the term "uniform," which came from unifying the different services' justice systems after WW2. But whatever it's called, they system shown in "Court Martial" always bugs me. The convening authority is also the investigator and president of the court? That's sort of like the police detective, the DA and the trial judge being all the same person. I know, they had to combine speaking parts, but still.
     
  4. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Now I might be mistaken but in the USA, JAG is responsible for administering justice, whilst the UCMJ lays out the rules and regulations that military personal have to abide by, in addition to any local laws.

    In the case of Starfleet wouldn't this be Starfleet General Orders and Regulations.

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_General_Orders_and_Regulations
     
  5. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think with Starfleet being a bit different, it has been commonly referred to simply as Starfleet Regulations, although sometimes it falls under some Starfleet General Orders as well.
     
  6. LordMudd

    LordMudd Commander Red Shirt

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    OK, but what about the MAKOs from Enterprise. They were a lot like the Marines to Starfleet's Navy? Were they eventually absorbed into Starfleet or do we just not see them anymore?

    CCC.
     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If you look at their patches you'll see some elements that were adopted by Starfleet.
     
  8. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    There might also be some form of Federation Justice System that governs Starfleet regulations.

    A criminal might be subject to charges of violating Starfleet, Federation, and local planetary laws all in a single arrest.
     
  9. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Who would have jurisdiction in that case? Or would it simply go to which ever law is the highest level. I.e Federation?
     
  10. LordMudd

    LordMudd Commander Red Shirt

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    I would assume that the Federation can make no law that contradicts any law of a member world. Example: Polygamy may be illegal on most Federation worlds, but is legal on Denobula. Do you force them to change to fit in? I would also assume that there would be options for off world enforcement of planetary laws, for example: a human or Andorian moving to Denobula thinking they can then practice polygamy. Because they are still citizens of their own world, their laws apply.

    CCC.
     
  11. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    And I could just as easily assume that Federation law supercedes any local laws. Sure UFP member worlds might have great autonomy but what happens if someone appeals a legal decision does it end with that member's highest court or can it be escalted to an even higher UFP court?
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just the opposite.

    In Cloud Minders the planet's head of government reminded Captain Kirk that Federation law doesn't supersede local law.

    Another example would be Bashir's parents taking him off Earth to have his intelligence increased, they still violated Earth law.

    Vulcan and Betazed both have arranged marriages of children. Earth might still have it as well, just as we do today. Could a group of Federation Members who don't have such an institution put forward a law in the Federation Council to forbid it? I would think no.

    There was also a Colonel West in TUC, obviously possessed a rank outside Starfleet's rank system. Perhaps a Marine (or Army) equivalent. If so, then there could be a "uniformed" justice system.

    It would depend on where the offense occurred. If it were inside a given Members jurisdiction the Federation would have no authority.

    If it were outside that jurisdiction - say in open interstellar space - then the Federation would have jurisdiction.

    Or if two Members both claimed jurisdiction, the Federation would assist in determining who has jurisdiction, but the Federation wouldn't be involved passed that determination.



    :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  13. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Yes of course they could put forward a law in the Federation Council to forbid it. Doesn't mean it would pass or hold upto a legal challange through the Federation courts.

    As for the example in "The Cloud Minders", I thought the line was more along 'You're Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments' but it has been quite a while since I watched the episode. So in theory a governmetn could thing an order was illegal that doesn't mean it was the case. Besides earlier in that very same episode didn't Ardana's ruling council have a legal responsibiltey to another and to assist another and to see that nothing interefered with that?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  14. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What I pulled from that line is that all Federation Members are the masters of their own domains. That doesn't mean Ardana didn't have an obligation (treaty obligation?) to Merek Two in their time of need to deliver zenite. One Member assisting another.

    :)
     
  15. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Member worlds might be free to run their own affairs as they see fit, but that doesn't preculde them having to abdie by Federation Laws as well as their own.
     
  16. LordMudd

    LordMudd Commander Red Shirt

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    What about individuals who come from non member worlds but may wish to remain in the Federation? (Who Watches the Watchers) Would there be Federation citizenship? What would the advantages be? Disadvantages? Could a citizen of a member world opt out for Federation citizenship?

    CCC.
     
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    These aren't some dirty water third world countries, the members are high tech, warp capable, advanced planetary civilizations. There are few (if any) laws that they would need from the Federation Council. If they need a new law, they'll pass one without the Federation's input.

    I doubt the UK needs the UN's assistance in deciding on new laws.

    :)
     
  18. TheCegorach

    TheCegorach Ensign Newbie

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    Most nations today have ceded varying degrees of sovereignty to international organizations like the UN or to various treaty regimes. I would imagine the same is true in the case of Federation worlds.

    For instance, having ratified the UN Convention on Laws Of the Sea, the UK actually /does/ have to keep the UN in mind if it wishes to to make new maritime laws. It cannot arbitrarily legislate new definitions of territorial waters or maritime economic zones, for instance.

    Plenty of other examples could be found for other areas of law, and again, by analogy, the same could be expected to be true of Federation worlds. Consider also the EU, which even more than the UN, supercedes the authority of its member states in several areas (trade law, immigration law, and I think key parts of health and environmental law, as well).
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But the UN didn't decide that the UK would ratify the treaty, however I see your point. The Members would have to take into consideration existing interstellar agreements (or withdrawl from them).



    :)
     
  20. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    But as had been pointed out EU law can supercede national law within it's member nations, and isn't it the case even in the USA Federal Law can at times trump State law?
     

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