LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by sovereign, Nov 18, 2013.

  1. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Location:
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    ^ Absolutely. While the existing opening scenes of the movie do pay lip service to the Federation being at something of a low ebb due to the ongoing War, they're also a goofy sequence of scenes that are played for comedy value (Picard in a funny hat). IMO it would have been more dramatically satisfying to have seen the effect of the Dominion War on the Federation at some point in the movie. As you say, it might be a little too close to the explosive Borg battle from the start of First Contact, but it'd give the plot some kind of dramatic impetus that it currently lacks, in my opinion. :)

    For me that's what Insurrection is missing. It's maybe 85% of the way there, but the script needed a few more little nips and tucks to just bind things together in a more dramatically pleasing way than what we got.
     
  2. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    So Data goes on an exploration mission during a war?

    The story only works pre- or post-war.
     
  3. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Location:
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    ^ If the Brier Patch mission is intended to be some kind of 'trump card' in getting allies for the war effort, then Data being seconded to the mission (perhaps by Doughty going over Picard's head?) on assignment is excusable. Maybe there is some way in which his unique and particular skills are somehow useful to the mission?

    Actually, does Insurrection itself actually offer any explanation for why Data, in particular, is chosen for that mission? Or is it just brushed off, pretty much like any tangible explanation for why Worf is back on the ship? :confused:
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Hell, it would be a good plot point. "What the hell is so important about this mission to the middle of nowhere that they took Data from us in the middle of the war???"

    A hell of a lot more sensible than Worf magically being on the ship, though from a meta standpoint I get a kick out of the fact that they don't even bother trying to explain his presence this time around.

    I kind of think Data was assigned because they (obviously erroneously) figured he would follow ethically questionable orders without making a fuss and had capabilities exceeding those of the other Starfleet personnel assigned...and who annoyingly disappear entirely in the course of the film.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    Because conflict drives drama. Since there was little in the way of actual, tangible conflict between the S'ona and Ba'ku, a sharp divide in the crew might have engaged the audience more and made the movie more palatable to watch. No one in the movie really hit Picard with how dire the Federation situation was. What if Geordi had been dying in sick bay and the concentrated particles were the only way to save him? Then you've created an argument that has two strong, but diametrically opposed sides. Picard would then have to make the decision whether or not to back the Ba'ku knowing that doing so would sentence Geordi and thousands of others like him to death.

    Hell, they should've promoted Riker off screen and had the movie be Picard vs. Riker with the Ba'ku in the middle.
     
  6. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    ...they were terrible films.


    No one in their right mind would ever suggest that....unless you want to name names? :)
     
  7. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Location:
    Somewhere in Connecticut
    The Federation is a big place and they would have needed some starships handling the sorts of crises that occurred on a weekly basis while TNG was on the air. It's possible that the Enterprise was kept off the front lines for exactly those sorts of missions.
     
  8. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Location:
    RIP Leonard Nimoy
    Going back to what I said earlier (this thread ?): Betazed had been invaded during the war. Troi, if anybody, should have had issues working with a race that made White; if not that her and Crusher should have been on the side of "We're in (just got out of) a horrible war, we need the healing energy of these rings"
     
  9. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    When did it become Dougherty's plan?

    My feeling from watching the movie is that Dougherty was probably brought in after the Federation Council already decided to move the Baku and harvest the particles. The plan was theirs. Dougherty assignment would have been to oversee the operation, he would have been like a project manager.

    It was never Dougherty's plan.

    :)
     
  10. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    I could never figure it out. Why involve Data and thus Picard if you're doing something dodgy. Is Data meant to be some expert on native behaviour or something?
    And why does Data go pyscho again?
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Data discovers the holoship in the lake, and then some of the Sona shot him, resulting in a malfunction.

    But if Data was part of the team studying the Baku, so that the simulation in the holoship would be believable to the Baku during the relocation, wouldn't he already know about the holoship and the Federation's intention to relocate the Baku?


    :)
     
  12. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Location:
    Somewhere in Connecticut
    I haven't watched INS in a long time, so I'm vague on the specific details of its plot...but holographically-concealed anthropological observation outposts had been established in "Who Watches the Watchers?" (Season 3), so he was probably only aware of the outpost's "cover", not its true purpose.
     
  13. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    When Picard asks Data, later on Enterprise, what he can recall about having been shot, Data notes that he was "following some children into the hills."

    Uh ...

    This one line is so deeply disturbing on its own, but especially, in relation to Data's fixation with the boy, until the kid's resolve weakens enough to finally tolerate, then accept Data. It's INS' only major flaw.

    As a fan, I "get it" that Data is a child, himself, at least in terms of his being naive and innocent, generally. But objectively, it's wholly inappropriate. Only a fan would understand. It's too "inside" ...
     
  14. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    I'd rather say that's more of a flaw on your side.
     
  15. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    "Who are you?"
    My feeling from watching the movie was that Dougherty didn't have full and formal support of the Council.

    Maybe Dougherty didn't think up the whole thing, but then who did? The whole film is rather squishy on the subject of who's behind him and who isn't. In TUC, the conspiracy was unmasked (literally, depending on which version you saw). In INS, the whole thing just kinda drops. It would be too dramatic a revelation, for democracy in the Federation to be in jeopardy like that, just to let it drop. If such a dramatic revelation was the intent of the film, then that's a failing of it.

    I took the Council ordering a top-level review after the Enterprise makes contact to be confirmation that Dougherty didn't have full and formal support of the Council [ref]:

    Since that's the end of it, and everything's all hunky-dory again (fade to credits on a happy note, or bittersweet if you count Data having to go home now), I'm just going with the face-value interpretation, that the conspiracy did not go all the way to the top.

    But, to be clear, the movie raising questions like this and not following up is one reason why the film is weak sauce. Playing the "Ambiguity!" card is not a strength, in this instance.
     
  16. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    Absolutely right. But then, you can't bring up the whole "conspiracy" and "rogue admiral" angle if you admit that Dougherty was just following orders.


    And of course since the orders DID come from the top, then Picard knowingly violated lawful orders from a representative body of a democracy. His actions directly led to violence and deaths. And he basically got off clean.:wtf:
     
  17. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Location:
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    I think people prefer to think Admiral Dougherty was working autonomously, because of the whole dumbass 'Riker-being-sent-off-to-tell-the-Federation-what's-really-happening-on-the-planet' subplot... I mean, if they know about it already, then assuming he does get a message out, are the Federation council just gonna shrug and say they don't care?

    Basically just another plot hole in Insurrection's script that's big enough to fly a Romulan Warbird through. :D
     
  18. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    CommishSleer
    I think Data discovered something on the planet that Dougherty was hushing up. I still don't understand what though.
    That the Baku were not primitives? That the Sona were mean? What would make the Federation change its orders to remove the Baku?
    Is it OK to move primitives or is it OK to move Warp civilisations. I don't really understand the purpose of the study Data was in.
     
  19. Green Shirt

    Green Shirt Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Location:
    U.S.S. Enterprise, Starship Class
    Lay off? Where's the fun in not throwing rotten tomatoes at crappy movies? :devil:

    As long as one offers constructive criticism. :techman:
     
  20. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    Yeah, someone here(T'Girl, maybe?) in these threads usually brings up the idea of a hilarious comedy scene where we see that Riker gets a message to the Council, and they're like "yeah? So what? We already know what's going on because WE GAVE THE ORDERS, STUPID!":lol:)