Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by TrekToday, Sep 17, 2013.
The Moby Dick crap in TWOK is one of it's weaker elements. If not for Monty's awesome delivery, I think people would see it more for what it really was: a ham-fisted attempt to bring cohesion to a conceptually weak and inconsistent villain.
It's the one thing (Well, besides the score.) that First Contact does better. The comparison of Picard to Ahab was proper allusion. In fact, I'd bet that Braga/Moore would have included it even had it not been in TWOK since it was the natural conclusion to Picard's story arc with the Borg. Even still, like Khan, it too was heavy-handed and probably superfluous.
Staying with First Contact, Picard's silent "Alas, poor Yorick" lament is an example of great allusion. It's powerful in its subtlety, and was an inspired act of sheer brilliance on Stewart's part. I don't have many great things to say about FC, but that's one. Also, the score.
This sums up why I think TWoK is so damn good.
My thoughts as well. IMO this is just sour grapes from a small bunch of amateur/wanna be writers.
What, it's an objective fact that Into Darkness was a fun movie, was it? You're embarrassed by people who don't like a film that you like? Really now? I think you've watched that Onion video a few too many times.
I'm embarrassed for our fandom, cause the jerks are becoming our public face. The don't have to like the movie, but their actions are giving the fandom a bad rep. The members of any of the production teams shouldn't be subject to abuse by "so called fans" for simply doing their jobs. Basically, from a PR standpoint, we're angling right back around to the stereotype to the basement dwelling virgins with no life.
Well, that's not quite what he said, is it?
And that's a bit more personal than was really called for. Less of that, please.
This is just Kurtzman covering his back, everyone does in this business. He seems relieved if anything and that probably stems from the poor execution of STID's ending. It's funny but STID is like that of The Dark Knight if you compare these two trilogies- yes I can call JJ Trek a trilogy since Paramount are most certainly greenlighting a third film.
The Dark Knight set a precedent for OTT scenes and heart-stopping emotive scenes every five minutes, but it was justified because you had the Joker, brilliantly played by Heath Ledger who made it all work out. You were simply enraptured in a perverse and sick way to this character. But it's the only reason why the Dark Knight worked out so well as it did. I think too many blockbusters are trying to emulate the Dark Knight, I think STID suffered a little from this to.
Let's do a little comparison:
Main character must face up to his responsibilities as the consequences of his role catch up with him. Check.
Two villains. Check.
A significant person in the main character's life dies. Check.
Death of this significant person causes the main character to go off the rails. Check.
The primary villain is ruthless and god damn crazy at times. Check.
The secondary villain starts out as a hero and ends up as the villain. Check.
The primary villain deliberately lets himself be captured. Check.
The main character discovers his true purpose after the most testing of trials. Check. Check!
I'm sure there are more similarities of the basic constituent plot parts. STID though seems to have its basic premise grafted off the Dark Knight and quite a few of the plot details from TWOK/Space Seed. There's nothing wrong with combos since all films are a combination of several, or more, older films. It's how you execute them which really matters.
And STID was working out so well during the initial two thirds of its runtime, but the writers botched the last third. It was a good death scene but ruined by Spock screaming Khan and Kirk being brought back from the dead hours later. They used a Deus Ex Machina which totally trivialized the death scene. Then of course Kirk's speech which was a little empty considering revenge was Kirk's initial reason for tracking down Khan.
What happened? STID would have been a home run for me if Kirk stayed dead, Spock's external pain was simply confined to his eyes, Khan escaped and Spock gave that speech. Four little things which could have been done in the last fifteen minutes or so. They fumbled the ending and robbed it of its meaning and power, which sadly cast a shadow on the rest of the film.
I think maybe Kurtzman and co are somewhat regretting this but they got away with it and so they should if you want a decent sci-fi action flick. It's not about the plot holes, hell the Dark Knight is all over the place but you ignore them just so you can see more of the Joker, but wrapping it all up. The DK gave us a solid conclusion/continuation. STID? A little shaky to what was a really good ST movie in the first half.
And it's a shame because Star Trek has never looked so good from a visual point of view.
As for the Onion video about Star Trek fans, it sure hit the nail on the head!
I get what you're saying. I've seen films where the story has been built, the characters have been fleshed out, and I'm just waiting for the big payoff and... *fizzle*. It happens. I don't feel that way about STiD, but I can understand why you might.
The payoff! STID has, for me anyway, the poorest payoff out of all of the ST movies I've seen.
If you guys don't mind saying, what about the ending fizzled for you?
Not wanting to repeat myself but my gripe with the ending and why it fizzled are in this particular post of this thread.
That seems fair. You're looking more at plot choices. That you haven't decided to condemn the writers to hellfire indicates you're rather reasonable about the whole thing.
I think the TWOK stuff is often misconstrued as a mere rip-off and whilst it's hard to argue against certain moments as superficial 'homage' I think there is enough going on beneath the surface that helps the movie forge its own identity. For instance, Kirk and Spock and the glass - easy to dimiss as having no 'weight' due to the characters only meeting two minutes ago but it could be argued that Spock's anguish is that of someone who has had a potential true friendship taken away from him. I can't recall the exact line but Quinto sold this moment for me during the death scene but then, like you, I was instantly transported out of the scene and reminded that I was watching a daft action movie with the 'Khaaaaan' line and Spock's ultimate hulking out and fisticuff battle on the set of the Total Recall remake.
I'll give the writers the benefit of the doubt as they made Star Trek 09 work. Maybe they tried too hard with STID, maybe they threw to much time at the script or maybe they were having an off day when they came up with the premise, yet could not radically alter it because perhaps a deadline was coming. I dunno.
That's why I'm holding out hope that STID's ending was a fluke and the third alternative TOS film is a step in the right direction. I'm not even asking for anything special but just cut out the sloppy bits and throw in a sprinkle more of McCoy. However I do fear a trend developing.
Consider the Spock/Uhura romance in ST 09, to this day I still don't know what Spock was thinking and I hope it was not a case of 'my planet's destroyed, let's get it on with one of my former cadets I trained'. It's about the only problem I had with ST 09 and the only thing I thought was silly.
I'm going to ignore STID's plotholes (some more sillyness there but I won't divulge) and Carol Marcus' booty and say STID's ending descended into sillyness to. Kirk's death followed by his resurrection several hours later, Spock screaming Khan and sounding like a toddler having a tantrum because his crayons are broken, and to top it off Spock and Khan fighting on some hover-vehicle (ala Star Wars Revenge of the Sith style).
It was funny in a way but giving its the ending I should not be giggling through most of it. But I definitely think STID had a greater silly factor than ST 09 did. So I hope the third film doesn't crank up the factor some more, and that is the trend I hope is broken.
I've posted a lot of nitpicks and questions up for debate. I also LOVED the movie.
My experience seeing ID was similar to my experience seeing INSURRECTION. I just kept wondering when I was supposed to care about what was happening to the characters. And just as with INSURRECTION, I never did.
Yeah, when I watched the "death scene" I kinda just squinted and turned my head thinking "please just get past this crap"
The "pay-off" in STID was what? .... Kirk being brought back to life and Kirk force-feeding a speech about exploration? (which felt like the ending of VOY: Endgame BTW...)
Not much there, eh?
I'm not sure I'm here.
I can see what your saying. If you going to do it, then go all the way! (I thinking that's what you are implying)
I don't want Kirk dead, and most certainly don't want another rehash of an old movie.
I want them all alive and some original writing!!
Enterprising Young Men!!!! ... n-$hit...
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