Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by Robert Comsol, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    I'm aware of your theory but find myself unable to concur:

    SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair. It's completely unusable.
    KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
    SCOTT: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.

    SCOTT: Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance.

    These lines from "Elaan of Troyius" suggest that you can have deflector shields, capable of withstanding Klingon disruptor blasts, whose energy either comes from the matter-antimatter reactor together with the dilithium crystals ("warp power to the shields") or from the main energizers.

    The odd thing is that Scotty feels unable to generate phaser power, as he apparently was capable to "charge" the phaser bank of the Constellation without the availability of "warp power" (or he is just being insubordinate, feeling that deflector shield power has priority over phaser capability :devil:).

    Bob
     
  2. Just a Bill

    Just a Bill Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Too cool. It's a shame we never saw that detail on screen.
     
  3. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    @Bob - I'm not sure where the disagreement is. The dialogue you quote doesn't change my statement above as the auxiliary power systems are powering the shields. Perhaps we have a different definition of "high-powered energy transfer"?

    As to the battle in "Elaan of Troyius" let's look at several things at the same time:

    Enterprise's shields are pretty strong, especially by episode 37.
    • In episode 9 "Balance of Terror", at warp speed her shields were barely able to hold off a weakened Romulan Plasma torpedo.
    • In episode 37 "The Changeling", her shields at both warp (first 4 hits) and impulse (the last hit) could hold off the equivalent of 90 of her own torpedoes for each hit for a total of 450 torpedoes.
    • In episode 40 "The Deadly Years", at warp speed her shields were holding off multiple Romulan Plasma torpedoes and another type of torpedo.

    So by episode 57, "Elaan of Troyius", even with only impulse power, I would expect the Enterprise's shields would "hold for a few passes" (like three as seen in the episode).

    The other thing about her shields are that they utilize power proportionate to the threat. In other words, they can use up all the power leaving nothing for maneuvering and/or weapons. In "A Taste of Armageddon" the shields used up enough power that the Enterprise could not fire full phasers although photon torpedoes would not be a problem. In "The Tholian Web", Spock allocates power to shields which again limited her ability to fire full phasers. In the extreme case of "Return of the Archons", the shields used up so much power that there was none left for impulse or warp and the ship was in danger of falling out of orbit.

    In "Elaan of Troyius", when Scotty says they can't generate enough power to fire their weapons it would be consistent with what we've seen since the shields would be taking enough power to ward of the Klingon Battlecruiser's disruptors leaving little for impulse maneuvering. Contrast this with "The Doomsday Machine" where they have some impulse maneuvering power and were able to charge a phaser bank but *did not* have any shields up. Could the Enterprise in "Elaan" fire her phasers (at partial impulse-level power) or photon torpedoes? I would think yes, IF she had her shields down or below the point where they could stop a disruptor hit. But that would've been a short fight! ;)



     
  4. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    From your thread and various comments on the issue of the "main energizers" I've drawn the conclusion that you assume the dilithium crystal (regeneration) room (i.e. where the crystals are "re-amplified" and/or "re-energized") from "The Alternative Factor" to be essentially the "main energizer" (or a Season One dilithium crystal converter assembly equivalent) through which the matter-antimatter annihilation energy passes to be transformed into energy for the warp drive and other applications.

    I definitely don't think that's the case. It's a room where the dilithium crystals relax and regenerate. By closing the drawers (!) Lt. Masters (science division) apparently put the crystals to 'sleep', not to 'work', IMHO.

    Just because we didn't see the engine room/s in the engineering hull with the apparent dilithium crystal converter assembly and its casing during Season One, doesn't mean it wasn't there, yet. :)

    Therefore I strongly believe these "main energizers" to be something else. I made a suggestion, though it doesn't necessarily have to be the best one available.

    Bob
     
  5. Potemkin_Prod

    Potemkin_Prod Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Location:
    Metro-Birmingham, Alabama
    In TWOK parlance, Kirk orders "Stop energizers." There's another place where Scotty says "The main energizer's been hit." They can no longer warp and can only give Kirk a "few shots" from the phasers. Later, iirc, the "energizers are back on-line" and they can go to warp. I'm not convinced that the energizers have anything to do with the dilithium crystals, and may have something to do with the warp coils or the "space matrix restoration coils" or even the "Chamber's Coil" that Uhura mentions.

    Fascinating how all of these things can be interpreted so many different ways by so many different people.
     
  6. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Ohh I see. That makes more sense now as your previous reply didn't mention where we differed.

    I had thought about that but then I ask:

    1. If that energizer is where the crystals ONLY go to relax and regenerate, then after they were charged back up why were they still there when they were stolen both times considering Kirk needs them to power the ship?
    2. If the ship were in trouble, like in combat, have we seen the crew pull the crystals and run to a separate location to charge them back up and then run them back to the engine room to re-insert them in to make use of them? I'm thinking of "The Tholian Web" where Scotty estimated that he would "have about 80% power built up." But at the time they interphase, they were "only up to 76%" and they went with that. I just don't see crewman running back and forth to plug the crystals back in.
    3. In "Elaan of Troyius", do you think they had to run the crude necklace crystals over to a charging energizer before plugging them in to the crystal converter assembly?
    IMHO, whatever energizer the crystals are plugged into should be able to both *charge* and *discharge* the crystals like a lithium-ion battery in a laptop or smartphone. I do believe that the main energizers were upgraded over time in TOS and that there was no separate charging station.


    Did you notice that Spock repaired the "mains" while he was inside the dilithium crystal room? That would seem like a pretty direct connection that dilithium crystals and main energizers go together, IMHO.

    So true... :D
     
  7. Potemkin_Prod

    Potemkin_Prod Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Location:
    Metro-Birmingham, Alabama
    Uh, where did anyone name or state that that was the dilithium chamber room (no tech manual references, please). IIRC, we're assuming that.
     
  8. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Stated in dialogue, no. Visually, they used a holder for the crystals (the top that Spock lifts off) that contained something reflective inside which in "The Voyage Home" they show us a close-up of a similar looking holder that held the Klingon crystals (which was identified as such in the movie.)

    (click to enlarge)
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Potemkin_Prod

    Potemkin_Prod Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Location:
    Metro-Birmingham, Alabama
    I'm not convinced by that sort of thing. The series and movies reworked items all the time for either similar or completely different purposes. After all the Klingon bridge was reworked into the Enterprise torpedo bay.

    Now if Spock had removed a crystal for us to all see, I would say "Yes!" But he didn't. He puts the top back on and the energizers are back on-line. That's the only thing we can assume.

    I realize most fans prefer to take Shane Johnson's assertion that that's the "dilithium reactor room" as the gospel, but I choose to remain open-minded if not skeptical about it. Especially since in "Elaan of Troyius," we see Scotty working with the dilithium crystal assembly with his bare hands and no rad suit.

    Sorry about taking the thread off topic a bit.
     
  10. Just a Bill

    Just a Bill Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Yeah, how about Nomad, M-4, and the Romulan cloaking device? ;)

    I have to agree with all that. Probably we'll never have a definitive answer that agrees with everything we've seen on screen, and I must admit I never really understood exactly what Spock was doing, but it certainly didn't seem (to me) to behave like anything related to the dilithium crystals that we ever saw before.
     
  11. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    Not at all, actually the contrary is the case as we're getting to the bottom of some important issues that concern the "casings" in the TOS engine rooms of which one was recently illustrated here on Engineering Deck 12. :)

    Bob
     
  12. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    NOW...I do see and do assume to understand what you are / were trying to say with your "energizer room" theory.

    Short and straight answer: This is the Star Trek II main energizer room!

    First things first:

    Enterprise gets hit, Scotty reports "main energizer is out!"
    Switching to "batteries" will provide them with "auxilary power in a few minutes" which also enables them to have "a few phaser shots" (and the capability to beam several people down to the Genesis Cave, I should add).

    Back on the ship Scotty reports "energizer is by-passed" and that's it.
    Obviously, my official movie novelization from Vonda N. McIntyre (based on the screenplay) had to take over:

    "What's the damage, Scotty?" - "Admiral, I canna put the mains back on-line! The energizer's burst; if I try to gi' it to ye, 'twill go critical!" - "Scotty, we've got to have main power! Get in there and fix it!" :eek:

    That may not be dilithium-solid evidence, but for my taste I'd consider this to be pretty much rock solid.

    Interestingly, the ST II engine room set up is more compatible with the TOS one than the one from TMP as my working premise, too, had been that the dilithium crystal converter assembly is not (yet) part of the "warp core" (movie lingo: "(intermix) chamber coil") but an adjacent component.

    And that thingy Spock is working on shares a distinct design similarity with the TOS dilithium crystal converter assembly (it probably retracts into the floor for operation, too).

    Khan really knew where to hit them and hard. :devil:

    I also have to admit that the ST II energizer room reminds me a bit of the TOS dilithium crystal regeneration room from "The Alternative Factor" (i.e. if I were given the job to make a movie version of that room, it would probably look a lot like this one in ST II).

    But I still do believe it's just the regeneration room. Given he context of the episode (a possible invasion into federation space), Kirk is rather upset when he learns that the dilithium crystals are not in top shape ("Re-Amplify, immediately!").

    Orbiting the planet (and having transporting power thanks to the "batteries") the ship doesn't need the dilithium crystals, yet, thus Kirk understandably wants to see these fully regenerated so that he has full "crystal power" in case he will need it soon at which point of time the crystals will - of course - be put back in their converter assembly "cages".

    IMHO, of course. ;)

    Bob

    P.S. These latest posts really made my day! I take as conclusion that the proper designation of the TOS engine room floor casing with the dilithium converter assembly is "energizer" and these big GNDN props are probably the "batteries" or - in my world - fusion reactors.

    P.P.S
    Didn't I previously mention a rather insubordinate attitude of Scotty in "Elaan of Troyius"?
    Kirk gives Scotty a clear and precise order. Apparently, the movie producers became aware of that and decided to let Scotty rather faint than disobey a direct order...
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  13. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    I forgot to include this morning that I think the reason why the Klingon crystal holder looks so similar to the Enterprise's is from this line in TVH:
    SCOTT: We're ready, sir. I've converted the dilithium sequencer into something a little less primitive.
    I figured since Scotty changed the dilithium sequencer it was a nice touch to have it look like he pieced the dilithium holder from another Federation starship.

    As to the floor casing of the TOS Engine room being the energizer, I would suggest that it is more the top of large energizer machinery that is below the floor. Kinda like how in TWOK that the crystals are on top of a shaft that leads down below to what I would imagine to be the energizers. I'd imagine that if Scotty in "Elaan" pulled the crystal holder out of the lift socket exposing the opening that radiation would probably pour into the engine room ;)

    Speaking of props re-used for "similar purposes" like the crystal holder, I think the most obvious one is the use of the TNG warp core in ST6. In ST6 it was never called the warp core or intermix shaft or anything yet we're okay to assume that it powers the ship... :)
     
  14. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    Great point. Then it's dilithium-solid, now!? ;)

    Interesting idea. But I'm not yet sure regarding the details.

    The problem: In "The Doomsday-Machine" and the ST II novel there is a clear reference to "main energizers" (ST II novel: "We're just hanging on, sir. The main energizers are out.")

    Obviously, the main energizers play a vital role so the ship can have full phaser, shield and warp power, which we usually assume comes straight from the annihilation of protons and anti-protons and the reaction energy channeled through dilithium crystals (the antimatter particles have to have an electric charge, otherwise you couldn't contain these in a magnetic 'bottle').

    According to TMP (and in general) we have this enigmatic "intermix formula" and there's been talk of a mixing ratio between matter and antimatter which makes no real science sense. One proton of antimatter will only annihilate one proton of corresponding matter, the formula is always 1:1.

    It's rather the "sequence" of matter-antimatter reactions that will determine the yield of power, but then, that should be explicitly stated and I don't buy the theory that we are looking at yet another colloquialism.

    What happens in a nuclear fusion reactor? You fuse lighter elements into heavier ones and in the process generate heat and electric energy.

    Come to seriously think about, even in the 21st Century we are all still living in the "steam power" age as all can we can practically think of is to turn the heat from fission or fusion energy into steam to power turbines and generate electricity!

    What would happen instead if you were to expose dilithium crystals to the energy of nuclear fusion????

    Would you be able to convert the energy into some exotic energy necessary to add to the matter-antimatter annihilation plasma (intermix formula) and thus create the exotic energy to power phasers, shields and warp drive????

    Apparently, by the time of TNG (or ST VI for that matter ;)) the dilithium crystals are a component inside the matter-antimatter reaction chamber but I don't see the necessity why this has to retroactively apply already to the technology seen in TOS and the first feature films.

    I know this sounds heretic and unorthodox (as usual) but I think it may be worth further examination if it answers more questions than raising new ones.

    Bob

    P.S.

    I'm currently busy working on the interior engineering levels around Engineering Deck 11. The current working premise is that the interior service corridor seen in "In A Mirror, Darkly" reveals the (deuterium) fuel lines running into matter-antimatter reactor # 3, partially visible in the background.
    Apparently, the power network of the TOS Enterprise is an issue that needs to be settled, as the aim of my deck plans is not only to be screen-accurate and make it look good but also add a sense of functionality that is credible / palatable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2013
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    I like that! It makes some sort of sense of the silly "intermix" notion, as well as putting the dilithium crystals in the category of "extremely useful" but not "essential" (since we know from Mudds Women that the ship can travel FTL either on batteries or by using the Converter Assembly to bypass the mains)

    It has been postulated (by Blssdwlf I think) that some sort of "magic" function of the crystals was needed to provide some extra oomph to the engines - bathing the crystals in the roaring inferno of a fusion reactor does the trick for me! :)

    The good bit is that it also provides a more natural transition into the TNG setup: Clearly, the "desk drawer" of the TNG warp core is some sort of mini fusion reactor that energizes the dilithium as the m/am makes contact with it, sending streams of "magic-ized" energy off to the engines.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2013
  16. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    IIRC, my idea about the crystals was that they:
    1. regenerated antimatter (and matter fuel) when m/am energy is applied to them by possibly borrowing from an antimatter universe
    2. they store a charge like a giant capacitor or battery

    I think fusion power could charge one up but it might not be energetic or special enough to create antimatter in return, so a fusion-powered ship with crystals would get the buffered power benefit but would still have to gather up fuel on it's own, IMHO :)

    @Bob - I think there is ample evidence in TOS and in TWOK that points to the crystals being separate from the whole m/am reaction.
     
  17. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Ah yes, thanks for refreshing my memory!

    It's possible that the fusion bath is enough to trigger the "antimatter generation" that you mention? Certainly the link between dilithium and antimatter is evident from The Alternative Factor, although what that link is was of course never clearly defined. Also, if the crystals are really able to generate "free" antimatter in this way, it is in effect a shortcut to limitless energy. And while the Enterprise does "as we know from various episodes) regenerate its own power, this seems like a bit of an easy fix. Or maybe not, I may be missing something here!

    What I find particularly appealing about Robert_Comsol's latest notion is that it more easily bridges the gap between TOS and later incarnations of Trek. While your explanation of "different timelines" is one way to explain the differences in the use of of your dilithium setup and the one on TNG, the holy grail would have to be finding one constant technological inerpretation that spans the different series and movies.

    I do think that the popular TNG setup (matter at the top, antimatter at the bottom, anihilation takes place via a crystal in the centre) is probably a gross simplification of what actually occurs - and luckily, no onscreen dialogue ever says otherwise. So, what else could be happenning then? A miniaturised version of the TOS dilithium assembly is an attractive possiblity, at least.
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    I remember from your thread several TOS quotes that do hint the ship's capability to "re-energize" itself, i.e. refuel antimatter but I find your antimatter universe idea to be too "exotic" - for my taste that is.

    My understanding of crystals is limited but from what I've read they act as amplifiers (Kirk: "re-amplify"!) and oscillators. Thus, the output is bigger than the input and if I'm not totally mistaken you can use the extra output to generate new antimatter from ordinary matter (plenty available via the Bussard "sinks" and thanks to warped space). I'm aware it's equally exotic but I believe this to be within established treknological parameters.

    I believe this charge storage idea to come from "The Alternative Factor" but having just seen the episode - again - (is this "Cause and Effect"? ;)) I can't help the feeling that it is rather the incredible amount of charges that is channeled through these (diminishing their capabilities, hence the necessity to regenerate, re-amplify or re-energize these) than an actual discharge of the crystals that's weakening their power (i.e. capability).

    Let's also not forget that the screenplay is in some parts pure rubbish: Kirk arrives on a planet vis-a-vis the "good" Lazarus who consists of antimatter. This meeting couldn't take place, neither in our matter universe nor a hypothetical animatter universe.

    We should take treknological conclusions from this episode with appropriate quantities of salt, IMHO. ;)

    Bob
     
  19. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Location:
    USS Berlin
    My idea is that once you channel the ionized fusion plasma through the dilithium crystals you integrate the exotic energy output you get (is that why they refer to a "matter-antimatter integrator"?) into the matter-antimatter annihilation plasma stream to get as a final result (intermix) the exotic energy you need for warp drive and - to some extent - creation of new antimatter.

    When the phenomenom happened first, they were able to measure a "drain" on the crystals, hence Kirk ordered Lt. Masters to immediately "re-amplify" these.
    Later they used this "drain" to pinpoint the source of the space anomaly (i.e. used the crystals as a sensor) and Kirk ordered Lt. Masters to set up the experimentation chamber.

    I don't really know what the screenplay writer had in mind.
    Maybe he felt that if the crystals would have an amplifying effect to influence the fabric of normal space, then antimatter space would have a de-amplifying effect on the crystals. :confused:

    I found one comment from the ENT protagonist Tucker in "In A Mirror, Darkly" (or was he rather an antagonist in this episode? ;)) extremely illustrative:

    Aboard the USS Defiant (NCC-1764) he said he felt like a "steamboat mechanic" who suddenly has to understand the mechanics of the first "interplanetary spacecraft". We are looking at a time difference between TOS and TNG of close to a 100 years.

    In-universe I'd expect that the matter-antimatter propulsion concepts have evolved and what we've seen in TNG (or its era) is possibly a great leap forward - or just a very small step if already the Enterprise had such a TNG warp core in ST VI. :D

    Bob
     
  20. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Funny enough, I think one of the writers on TNG was thinking of this free energy as well. Remember in TNG's "Booby Trap", their answer for extending or making up for their loss of matter-antimatter energy supplies was to throw more reactants at the dilithium (rather than less to conserve fuel.)
    LEAH [OC]: Theoretically, yes. The system should be able to accept more reactants at a faster rate of injection.
    LAFORGE: Well, this is your baby. Show me which ones.
    LAFORGE: Computer, did I ask for a simulation?
    COMPUTER: Affirmative. You asked Doctor Brahms to show you which system could accept reactants at a faster rate.
    By accessing available imagery, an adequate facsimile was possible.
    LAFORGE: I did do that, didn't I? Okay, well, it's good to see you, Leah. Continue your analysis.
    LEAH: Systems L-452 through L-575 will accept reactants, providing all other systems are calibrated to an equal factor.
    LAFORGE: Then, if we use multiple injector streams, hitting more than one crystal facet, we could do it, we could hold our own. Leah, you're beautiful. La Forge to Picard.
    PICARD [OC]: Go ahead.
    LAFORGE: Captain, we've found a way to extend the matter-antimatter energy supplies.
    I think going back to "Mirror,Mirror" and "The Alternative Factor" this is why these crystals are so sought after. Apply matter-antimatter energy to it and they give you back matter-antimatter fuel to use again! :)

    It's possible that all they did was move the dilithium closer to the matter-antimatter reaction energy. The supposed difference in tech though is that in TNG they said dilithium regulates the reaction but in "Booby Trap" they appear also to give back as well. But I think the big difference is that the crystals no longer charge up or buffer energy. That seems to have been re-written for the main deflector...

    Yeah, it's exotic :) See my "Booby Trap" answer above.

    I figured when a crystal can be "drained" they are discharging their stored energy. The amount of charge they can hold seems to be tied to how healthy the crystals are, IMHO.

    "The Alternative Factor"
    LAZARUS: That's very bad, Captain. If he comes through at a time of his own choosing. But I think if we hurry and you will help me, he can yet still be stopped. There's little time left. He meant to come through. When you accidentally passed through, it drained his crystals. It'll take him about ten minutes to re-energise with the equipment aboard his ship. That should give us enough time.
    "Day of the Dove"
    SCOTT: There's no change, Captain. The dilithium crystals are discharging.
    "The Voyage Home"
    SCOTT: Admiral, we have a serious problem. Would you please come down? It's these Klingon crystals, Admiral. The time-travel drained them. They're giving out. De-crystallising.
    Here we'll just have to disagree. The antimatter in Star Trek, and especially TOS, is clearly "different" than what real antimatter is:

    1. Antimatter from the antimatter universe reacts only universe-catastrophically with it's matching counterpart.
    2. A tiny amount of antimatter can blow off the atmosphere of a planet in "Obsession".
    3. An unknown amount of antimatter destroyed a giant space organism the size of a planet in "The Immunity Syndrome".
    4. Antimatter doesn't react immediately under certain conditions as spoken in "That Which Survives".