Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by Albertese, Mar 12, 2014.
Well I have evidence to support my position. You have...wishful thinking?
Your "evidence" is meaningless to me, since its info never appeared in canon other than some vague references that can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways.
Dehner's reference is canon. And that's not meaningless. GR's biographical outline in the Writer's Guide clearly lays out his intent for the character and it's backed up by Dehner's reference.
It may be meaningless to you, but it doesn't invalidate it. So all you are left with is...wishful thinking.
And what was that exact reference, if you please?
I never said it invalidated anything. You're welcome to believe what you want, even if your belief comes from a book someone wrote. And I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm saying that if the information about Kirk's command wasn't clearly stated in dialogue in the show, then anyone is equally free to interpret things however they want.
If Dehner's exact words were anything other than "You commanded a ship before this one, correct?" and if Kirk's reply was anything other than "Yes," then there's plenty of room for speculation.
Let's not get too far afield here. The cannonicity is NOT the issue here. Please read the first post of the thread.
I realize it's three pages away, so here, I'll give it to you again.
KIRK: That's enough, Doctor.
DEHNER: I don't think so. I understand you least of all. Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service, that you asked for him aboard your first command.
Italics mine. She says "aboard your first command" not "when you first took command." She's referencing another time and another place. That neatly affirms GR's biographical outline and his intent for Kirk's character having commanded a destroyer equivalent type vessel.
I agree that that's an acceptable interpretation. It's also acceptable that he asked for Gary to be aboard his first command before Kirk even had that command; that is, for all we know he was waiting for a command at the time, asked that Mitchell be allowed to serve on that as-yet-unknown ship with him, and then eventually got the command of the Enterprise when Pike stepped down. After all, that is where Mitchell is serving, yes? According to your version, Mitchell served with Kirk on some other ship before serving with him again on the Enterprise. I seriously doubt Kirk had that much clout to be able to bring Gary aboard two ships in a row, or that Mitchell just happened to be randomly assigned to a ship that Kirk commanded twice in a row. Seems to me that Dehner's line works just as well, if not better, if she were referring to the Enterprise.
FWIW, I have no problem whatsoever in believing that Kirk had another command before the Enterprise. All I'm saying is that the dialogue, as presented, can go either way.
...OR, this is being overthought, and she's merely referring to the fact that Kirk took command of the Enterprise and asked for Gary to be involved.
Given the nature of their mission in WNM, I had always assumed that is what she meant. Their first mission, or one of their first missions, was a deep range assignment to the galactic perimeter/barrier. Which explains also why the crew seems to be fairly familiar with one another right off the bat. They had six months or whatever amount of time to get to know eachother before reaching their destination.
We can speculate that
a) Kirk got what he wished, and Gary was aboard his earlier command and is aboard now,
b) Kirk got what he wished, and Gary is aboard his first command now, or
c) Kirk's wish was not granted, and his first command came and went without Gary aboard.
Is one of these preferable to others? Well, sort of. Dehner states that Spock's inhuman attitude is all the worse because he has worked with Mitchell for "years". She should know, being an officially appointed harasser of personnel. With "years" connecting Spock and Mitchell, this pairing may hold an edge over the professional pairing of Gary and Jim, considering the overall timeline - perhaps favoring models where Gary wasn't aboard Kirk's previous command, since the Kirk/Spock pairing certainly appears brand new and thus precludes a Kirk/Spock/Mitchell menage aboard that putative earlier ship.
I like you Warped9, often times I think you bring interesting ideas to discussions you take part in. But you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with the Abrams movies. They have no place in this discussion, or most discussions about TOS, and I say that as a fan of those films.
Also, we shouldn't pretend that TOS didn't stretch credibility from time to time to tell the story they wanted to tell. In "The Galileo Seven", we're suppose to believe that Spock had risen to the first officer of a starship yet had never had any missions he was in command of prior to the mission to explore the Murasaki Quasar?
As far as Kirk's first command goes? We simply don't have enough on screen evidence to know one way or the other.
^^ None of which invalidates the point I'm making.
And I sleep quite well at night and have a healthy appetite, thank you.
Sure it does. You blast the Abrams movies for taking what you perceive to be shortcuts to tell the stories they want to tell but seem to not hold TOS to that same standard. It really does taint your posts.
That's why when you take a detour to blast the Abrams films, people either roll their eyes at you or call you out on the non-sense.
I'm not sure that's the only interpretation. McCoy's comments about Spock's "chance" for command did not come until the shuttlecraft had been forced to land and they had lost contact with Enterprise. McCoy could have been referring to Spock's first command that was completely independent of a superior's orders, which, considereing Starfleet communication capabilities, could have been a rare occasion even for officers detailed to commanding landing parties, surveys and so on.
Whatever the interpretation, it was clear that Spock was an officer of considerable experience, so I don't personally think it's comparable to someone skipping all the grades and experience between cadet and cruiser captain.
Let's also remember Commodore Stocker and the established path to flag rank without stops at vessel command in between. Spock could have been kept clear of vessel command as well: Abrams paints him as a devoted instructor who may or may not have vessel commands under his belt when Pike makes him his XO, and Roddenberry Trek would be compatible with that part of Spock's character arc.
Is there really? Taking away the writer's guide conjecture, I think it's a lot of assumption on your part. Marla McGuyvers, for example, appeared to be assigned to the Enterprise based upon having collected enough cereal box tokens. We see endless unprofessional behaviour from the crew ("The Apple", "Lights of Zetar" etc.) ...
I've made my points with evidence. The Writer's Guide that GR wrote is not conjecture (it's what he intended) and it's backed up by evidence right in WNMHGB. I don't need to bother repeating it over and over just because some want to cover their ears and yell, "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah..."
It's more than just the dialogue though. Spock acts like a novice who has never worked with or been in command of humans before throughout the episode.
I still don't see your evidence being anything more than your interpretation of dialogue and behind-the-scenes memo's that were obviously ignored.
The officers serving under Kirk weren't always the most professional, security was often incredibly lax aboard the Enterprise and Kirk was constantly tiptoeing the line of insubordination and breaking regulations without ever having to answer for his actions. Not exactly representative of real world military practices...
Kirk is a cowboy and we like that he's a cowboy. But he would likely be drummed out of the real world military before the end of boot camp. He's about as realistic military officer as Maverick from Top Gun.
But a writers guide is just that, a guide. Things can and will change as a show progresses and as stories develop. Both Spock and Kirk evolved beyond what the writers guide originally said and the pilots and first episodes established. New and at times contradictory, information can and were introduced on an episode by episode basis. Sometimes the "need of the plot" will supersede continuity, reality and guidelines.
Separate names with a comma.