Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by CaptainBearclaw, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. CaptainBearclaw

    CaptainBearclaw Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    kirk's character in the new movies is going through a major character arc of responsibility. A natural conclusion to such an arc is usually committing a major sacrifice for the greater good of the crew.

    Wait, we've already seen that! yep, I submit that the story element of Kirk committing heroic sacrifice was better suited for the final film. Like Batman in The Dark Knight series.

    What I'm getting at is that they have kind of written themselves into a corner if they were intending to have closure to this story in the final movie.

    Let's hope they get creative.
     
  2. captainkirk

    captainkirk Commander Red Shirt

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    I have been wondering what kind of development he will get in the next movie. The problem with the idea of having his Into Darkness development in the final movie is that it would be difficult to drag everything on for so long. I'm guessing though, that they will go in a different direction, and (although for originality's sake I hope I'm wrong) David Marcus may be involved.
     
  3. Gsam

    Gsam Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I pray to the star trek god's every night that there is no David Marcus in the next movie.

    In wishing for the next movie to show Kirk's continued character arc, I would submit that highlighting his personal life is so not the way to go.

    This is about Kirk and his relationship with star fleet, his crew, and the universe at large. It is not about Kirk's personal life. His growth, his ability to command would be based on the premise that he has learned some hard lessons about humility, arrogance, etc. One of those lessons would be do not get involved in a personal relationship with a crew member. Do what is right and work on himself and personal growth.

    To be involved with Carol and then having David would just be a distraction and the same old, same old. He needs to have complete focus on the task at hand which is to be Captain Kirk.

    Perhaps the way to go would be that he has an actual mature friendship with a female and shows he has learned the value of people including woman and that he doesn't need to sleep with every one he has ever met.

    Learning to control impulses is the sign of a good captain. Yes TOS Kirk had his fun but it never interfered with his running of his ship.

    Basically IMO it would just plain suck if there was a Jim/Carol thing. Not to mention if wouldn't be a good idea for a Bones/Carol thing for the same reasons.

    I will scream bloody murder if we end up with Carol having David in another Kelvin like moment.
     
  4. captainkirk

    captainkirk Commander Red Shirt

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    Exactly. It would just be predictable and no one ever liked David. I'm hoping they do something no one is expecting. I was slightly disappointed after Alex Kurtzman had said that Kirk would have to deal with ordering crewmembers to their deaths and then there wasn't really anything like that in the movie. It would have been interesting to see a young captain having to make such a decision.
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    They'll have a daughter in this timeline. You read it here first! Remember me when you see it!! That's just the kind of AU twist the writers love.



    As for Kirk's story, I'm reminded of an interview with Chris Pine where he said he can't imagine how they'll do a third movie after this. At the time I figured death, destruction and the fall of Earth as the trailers teased, but now I'm sure Pine was talking about what's next for Kirk after he's made the ultimate sacrifice and that he and Spock have outright declared their undying (and totally not gay) man love.
     
  6. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    STID will forever make this Kirk different from Kirk Prime. Kirk Prime was 53 (TWOK) before he learned you can't cheat death (aka there are no-win scenarios). Comparatively, Kirk learned this before he was 30 and in a far more intimate way (his own death, not Spock's). We should not expect to hear, "I don't believe in no-win scenarios," coming from Kirk's mouth ever again.

    He'll also never give the "I've cheated death. I've tricked my way out of death, and patted myself on the back for my ingenuity. I know nothing," line Kirk Prime gave in TWOK. This Kirk didn't cheat death. That will have to affect his development going forward.

    To that end, I hope we see a much more mature and well-rounded Kirk in the next movie.
     
  7. talfe'anhar

    talfe'anhar Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Great thread! I agree, no romance between Carol and Jim, no kids! I am always up for more Kirk-Spock dynamic. To me, they are soul mates and forever bonded to each other (and no, not gay!) So anything they do along those lines would be great with me. I still like the dark Kirk idea. It seems like if they are going out there on their mission, we should see some new galactic baddies that they have to deal with. Kirk going dark and Spock and the gang having to fight the new villains AND figure out how to save Kirk. There we go!
     
  8. Gsam

    Gsam Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    To do a Kirk and Spock are soul mates centric film would be just wrong. Up until the point of Kirk's death scene they didn't even know each other.

    I say this because how close could they have been if Spock didn't even know how close Kirk and Pike were. I am sure there were many off shift com calls between the two in Kirk's quarters.

    I'm guessing that Spock was not present for these because he was spending his downtime with Uhura. Bones knew how close they were because it was he that spent downtime with Kirk in his quarters.

    I am also sensing from the events of the movie that Kirk and Spock did not spend time together playing 3D chess. They do not have appeared to have spent anytime having discussions about life and such while say writing reports because Spock still had no clue about Kirk's style.

    I could go on an on in all the ways that TOS and AOS differ with regards to the Kirk/Spock friendship. I know that now that they have had their death scene they are all the sudden best buddies.

    I don't believe that. I believe that the dynamics have changes in this verse in that Spock has Uhura and where as in TOS he might have had emotional interactions with Kirk after a mission, he now does so with Uhura.

    Furthermore, it is Bones that Kirk was willing to sacrifice everything for when his arm was caught in the missile. He was so upset that even Uhura deigned to comfort him with a hand on the shoulder.

    It was only with Pike and Bones that Kirk showed any emotions whatsoever. I am positive that the Kirk/Spock friendship has been altered now that Spock has seen Kirk die.

    But it is Bones who is the moral compass of Kirk and it would be him that could get Kirk to focus on what Spock is saying with regards to how to proceed in certain situations.

    So IMO you need more Bones so that Kirk will focus more on what Spock and others are saying. Bones knows Kirk like the back of his hand and can handle him better than anyone else.

    I think it is a big mistake to ignore the importance of Bones. If they had had more Bones in this movie things would have been very different. I believe Bones would have called Jim out on wanting revenge for Pike's death etc. He could have helped Jim think things through and realized certain truths sooner.

    Sorry for the mini rant but I am very passionate in my belief that it is most important to bring Bones back to the inner circle and to actually have some lines written for him that aren't well just plain ridiculous
     
  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I bought Kirk and Spock as BFF's from the opening of Into Darkness. They were constantly needling each other, but you could tell they were loving it.
     
  10. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But Kirk did cheat death, just not by his own means. Now he absolutely knows that when he dies for real, his friends will not be able to save him. He will be, for lack of a better word, alone.

    At the end of the next movie these characters should have evolved into the people we know from TOS.

    My predictions:
    Kirk is confident, but not brash and arrogant. He will be dedicated to his ship and crew, with little time for distractions.
    Spock will have better control of his emotions, and there will be no romantic involvements to complicate things.
    McCoy will be Kirk's confidante and conscience.
    Scotty will be, well, Scotty.

    Uhura will have moved on from her infatuation with Spock, Sulu will have begun his journey toward his own command, and Chekov will cultivate a Beatle 'do and start talking about little old ladies from Leningrad.

    Carol Marcus, if she appears at all, will be moving toward a civilian career. Kirk's goodbye to her might be end up in a one night stand that leaves her pregnant, but I doubt it will be part of the story.
     
  11. serenitytrek1

    serenitytrek1 Commander

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    Honestly, I rather see Kirk settle down for once in his life with a woman than have him keep having sex with every girl that smiles at him, that to me will be a real development to his character in terms of his personal life.

    Are u sure you don't ship kirk and spock as gay guys? kirk and spock been soul mate should have no impact on what kirk does with women unless of course you secretly wish that the writers would make kirk and spock homosexuals.

    I don't see how the kirk and spock dynamic would affect kirk from making good decision when it comes to women. which clearly he cant.

    he didn't even remember who Christine Chapel was and that is a women he had sex with. He also couldn't recognise Gallia in the deleted scene of the first film and that was also another woman he had sex with and I am still hating the three way sex scene in STiD...I remember a pastor comparing it to bestiality and who can blame him.

    I am not sure of the Kirk and Spock dynamic been front and centre in the movies is a good idea. In a TV series yes. In movies ....NO.

    In fact some critics have complained that this was one of the weaker part of the films, Its like very other character took a back sit to Kirk and Spock.



    In films with only 2 hours to spare, the crew of the enterprise is what matters most. A lot of people say more Bones , I say more Sulu for me please.

    the writers also need to figure out a way for the films to have a leading female character without her overshadowing one of the male leads aka the Uhura replacing Bones argument.


    Consider it like this, the crew if the enterprise are the fellowship of the ring. kirk and Spock are Frodo and sam.

    Now do you know how much Lord of the rings would have sucked if it focused only on Frodo and sam?

    believe me I cant put it in words.
     
  12. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But that won't happen.

    Kirk will go from being the rake we saw hem as in the first film to the dedicated, career-minded captain we know from the series. His involvements with women will evolve from the youthful conquests to momentary diversions from his job and responsibility.

    Jim Kirk is not the "marrying kind." Some men are just that way. They don't have the time or patience for the day to day responsibilities of a serious relationship, no matter how much they think they want one.

    That's why Prime Universe Carol sent him on his way. She knew he wouldn't be around, and that he would resent her if she tried to make him stay.

    Kirk and Spock aren't gay. There's nothing in canon to even suggest it. Two men can be close friends without having sex, just as two women can, or even a man and a woman can. I don't know where all that slash stuff comes from.
     
  13. serenitytrek1

    serenitytrek1 Commander

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    Well that was why I said....rather. I know it is likely not to happen . I don't think Kirk is the marrying kind as well and I don't even think star fleets top officers are the marrying kind. however I do know some of them are...Admiral Marcus surely had a wife.

    However, I would take kirk marrying over his endless womanising.



    NU-Trek is already facing accusation of sexism by some critics, do we really need to see Kirk in bed with 2 female Klingons next?


    when both women will have no impact to the plot's film.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  14. Clancy_s

    Clancy_s Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    At some point, maybe now ex? It seems as though Carol spent a fair proportion of her childhood in the UK whereas Marcus accent is US, to my ears.

    I'm in the give-us-space-adventure group and don't much care what they do with the characters personal lives so long as it's kept in the background, and a passing fling is easier to write off.
     
  15. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Some would call that bad writing. I'd call it taking an easy way out to fill screen time.

    That's one of my complaints with the current trend of 2-plus hour movies. It doesn't take two hours to tell a good story. A lot of what ends up onscreen is just unnecessary filler.

    IMO, YMMV, yeah.
     
  16. serenitytrek1

    serenitytrek1 Commander

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    I thought there was suppose to be a deleted scene on carol talking about her parents marriage and why she leaved in England with her Mum.

    I agree on the personal life thing as well. there is so much going on in the films. you cant really have the characters personal life addressed much in a fast paced film, this is (to me) also the reason why a pon farr subplot will suck in Trek 3...BIG TIME.

    I cant believe people actually want to see that in Trek 3.:confused:
     
  17. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Count me in on that.

    We've had the two big action films. It's time to explore, and let the characters drive the story.

    Good writers can make it fun and exciting and memorable. Bad writers can make it a box office success, but something that Trek fans will complain about until the end of time.

    I'm not looking forward to that. Thank goodness I might only live another 25-30 years. :lol:
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    :wtf:

    They had worked together for a year when Into Darkness starts.
     
  19. Gsam

    Gsam Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yes, they had worked together for a year when Into Darkness starts. You missed my point. After one year working together they still don't have a friendship or a sense of the other persons thoughts and how they will react to certain things or situations.

    Hence the whole problem with the reports and how Kirk didn't even know what Spock had done and the fact that it appears to me that Spock had no clue that Kirk was so close with Pike. If he did he sure was disrespecting even more than I thought with the mind meld.

    The whole point of what I wrote was to show that even after a year they don't appear to have gotten to know each other all that much for all the reasons that I listed in my prior post.

    I stand by my opinion that it would be a mistake to not utilize Bones more and in a better manner in the next film.
     
  20. serenitytrek1

    serenitytrek1 Commander

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    Kirk and Spock had worked together for 6 months and they were frenimes not friends that was why Bones told Kirk that Spock would let him die in the volcano and why Kirk, before his death asked Spock does he understand why he went back for him. Spock tearfully replies by saying because you are my friend.

    So they were not technically friends at the beginning of the film...yet.

    the whole thing with the kirk and spock dynamic in into darkness was that the writers didn't make it their own.

    they borrowed heavily form their legendary friendship in TOS. Its like the writers basically were trying to cement their friendship and place it on the same level of TOS Kirk and Spock without any hard work or depth, they even went as far as copying and pasting the scene from wrath of khan in STiD.


    If STiD had the kirk and spock dynamic fresh, unpredictable , original and standing on its own, it would have worked better and would have been more believable.



    People have opinions on what ST 3 should be like however while some of our opinions differ, we all agree that we want ORGINALITY. No more rip off, remakes, rehash or paying homages. STiD has done that enough.

    Someone said the third film should be about exploring. I am guessing Paramount are too scared to do that. Paramount believes the typical Hollywood formula of how a summer blockbuster film needs actions and amazing fight scenes with awesome visual effects to bring in the big box.

    Especially now that star wars is coming back



    Maybe Trek 3 should be like the Voyage home.... All fluffy and family stuff. It would definitely do well at the box office in USA however the foreign box office numbers might be poor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013