Kirk quote

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Captain McBain, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. Captain McBain

    Captain McBain Captain Captain

    When Kirk said that "Out of all the people I've known, Spock was the most human," or words to that effect, wasn't that pretty ridiculous?

    I mean, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, etc., all have shown a wide range of emotions, and Spock 99.9999% of the time was stone-faced.

    Yes, Kirk apparently wanted to say something memorable at Spock's funeral, but seriously, that kind of exaggeration is way over the top. I bet Sulu and Chekov were rolling their eyes when Kirk said it.
     
  2. Admiral_Sisko

    Admiral_Sisko Lieutenant Commander

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    The point Kirk was trying to make was that Spock always aspired to be more than he was, and that in choosing to sacrifice himself to save his friends and crew, he demonstrated unparalleled courage and compassion for the people with whom he served. Courage, compassion, and the desire to better oneself are human values, and Kirk believed that his friend embodied these values more than any other individual he'd encountered.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I liked it. Even if Spock would've said, "I find that remark... insulting" if he was there. :p

    But Mr Sisko said it very well. Spock's final act of self-sacrifice captured the nobility of his spirit very well.
     
  4. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes, of course it was appropriate and correct.

    Kirk wasn't talking about Spock's being human versus McCoy and Scotty in terms of stone-faced versus smiling and crying.

    There's more to being human than emotional displays. There are acts of humanity, like sacrificing yourself for your friends. No greater love than to lay down one's life for your friends.
     
  5. Captain McBain

    Captain McBain Captain Captain

    I guess I'll have to disagree with you guys. There may be more to being human than emotional displays, but emotional displays are a huge part of being human. For Kirk to say that Spock was the most human, despite rarely showing emotion, seems ridiculous.

    It'd be like Picard insisting that Data was the most human individual he knew, or Sisko saying that Odo was the most human. It'd make for a nice speech, but it seems to lack in truth.
     
  6. SmoothieX

    SmoothieX Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree and you said it better than I would have. :techman:
     
  7. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Disagree if you want, but it don't make you right. :lol:
     
  8. Captain McBain

    Captain McBain Captain Captain

    Agreeing doesn't make you right, either!
     
  9. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Spock actually displays emotion frequently. His emotional displays are simply subtle and more nuanced than those shown by Kirk or McCoy or Scotty. Spock shows way more emotion than most people seem to remember.

    Tuvok was cold, stone-faced, and condescending. Spock was stoic and intellectual, but he wasn't the emotionless automaton he's often remembered as.

    Spock always has a logical justification for his actions, but in the end Kirk knew his friend well enough to know that a major part of Spock's motivation for his sacrifice was emotional - his friendship with Kirk and his concern for the safety of others.

    A certain (paraphrased) Biblical quote seems appropriate: "No greater love has a man than this, that he would give his life to save his friends."

    The points about Spock trying to better himself are very true.
     
  10. jayrath

    jayrath Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not going to run back and check, but I believe that Kirk said something more like "Of all the souls I have encountered, his was the most human."

    Are we really going to debate his assessement of a soul? And anyway Spock was half human. That's what made him so conflicted and such an interesting character. If you prefer to see him as cool, calculating machine, and if you derive pleasure from that, well, good for you.
     
  11. Grant

    Grant Commodore Commodore

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    Really, how could someone so miss the point?

    Defining 'human' based on a scale of emotional display.
     
  12. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    By that definition Adolf Hitler was VERY human. :p
     
  13. Captain McBain

    Captain McBain Captain Captain

    I think you guys might be big fans of the original show, and so you're probably biased. Willingness to sacrifice oneself is a human quality, but other members of Kirk's crew surely would have done the same. And again, part of the overall picture of being human is the desire to laugh, and smile, and get angry, and sad, and so on. For the most part, Spock didn't do any of that.

    Would you honestly think Picard would be justified in insisting that Data was the most human soul he ever encountered? Of course you wouldn't. Or Sisko saying this about Odo? Again, of course you wouldn't.

    Having personality is part of being human. Someone who has, for the most part, a bland or non-existent personality, can't really be said to be 'fully human.'
     
  14. jayrath

    jayrath Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks for inadvertantly pointing out your own bias.
     
  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    That actually leaves out a fair amount of humans.

    But seriously, most alien characters in Star Trek would qualify as human according to your definition. Emotions and personality run rampant in almost every Trek race.
     
  16. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Also, it is having the emotions, not displaying them that makes you Human. Vulcans do have emotions, they just suppress them and prevent themselves from displaying those emotions. This doesn't mean they do not hurt every bit as much as a Human when a friend or a child, a parent or a spouse die, it merely means you are unlikely to see them making a scene about it.

    Not sure where this actual belief comes from that Vulcans don't actually have emotions or feelings, rather than suppressing them. Sure many characters have cracked this joke implying Vulcans are unfeeling, but, we know this is not the truth

    I actually know several people, who are very emotional, and when sad they hurt very deeply, and can even be paralyzed by how deeply they hurt, but, they don't cry out loud or show tears coming from their eyes. Just because you can't see crying, doesn't mean thy don't hurt just as much, in fact, I think maybe they hurt more, because they aren't able to "Cry it out"
     
  17. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Actually, yes I would. I can see Picard saying something like that, and I would understand and agree.

    Spock doesn't have a bland or non-existent personality. If you think he does, you're missing the point and misinterpreting pretty much everything Spock does.

    And besides, lots of actual non-fictional humans have "bland" personalities. Some people have mental or emotional conditions that make them seem cold or unemotional, and some people simply don't get overly excited. That doesn't mean they're not human.

    I was going to say the same thing. Like I said, I'm tired of people saying that Spock doesn't have emotions.
     
  18. Captain McBain

    Captain McBain Captain Captain

    Yes, I like the show, but I also try to be unbiased in life. Someone who defends another person no matter what they do or say isn't necessarily being unbiased.

    And guys, not once did I say that Spock has no emotions. But he doesn't show them. Part of being human is the desire to show emotion. If you saw a human walking around for days or weeks or years, rarely if ever showing emotion, you could justifiably ask "What is wrong with you?"

    Spock didn't want to show emotions---he felt such displays were illogical or whatever---and that is decidedly a non-human stance.

    But I'm done arguing. Some people have no intention of opposing favorite characters that they have, so it's pointless for me to continue. I think, though, that if you look at this issue objectively you will realize that Spock, by his very nature, couldn't have been the 'most human soul' Kirk had encountered, unless Kirk was really shortchanging the multitudinous humans he had known throughout the years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Spock showed his emotions all the damned time, he just didn't wear them on his sleeve. Nimoy played the character about as perfectly as an actor can play a character and I say this as someone who ranks Kirk as his favorite character. Nimoy conveyed so much with a simple raised eyebrow or slight smirk.

    Then you have his emotional outbursts in The Galileo Seven and Amok Time, just to name a couple. Spock was a bubbling cauldron of emotion.
     
  20. jayrath

    jayrath Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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