Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by austen_pierce, Sep 14, 2013.
Yes! Had Pike been in more scenes, Greenwood might have stolen ST09.
I would like to get to the bottom of this because it bugged me. I got why Kirk would be upset about Pike's death, but it was like Kirk had lost a parent or something. I just want to find out if there is a reason for Kirk's powerful reaction to Pike's death, preferably I want to find a reason other than melodrama for the sake of melodrama. That's important because Kirk's got to be more than a caricature.
Pike was probably as close to a father figure Kirk had. Especially given that it's implied Pike knew his father in some fashion, and that Pike tried to help Kirk find a direction in life. Losing someone like that in your life will be an aggressive kick to the stomach.
Try to think of someone whom you consider a mentor; someone who has helped guide you toward a path that is far greater than the one you were on. This person obviously cares deeply about you, and so you build a relationship with that person. Then, said person is murdered right in front of you. That is bound to have a profoundly deep effect on your emotional well-being. That mentor, that anchor of stability, that lighthouse, is now gone. Not just gone, but murdered.
Add to it that Pike served with Kirk's father, so there's a tenuous connection to the man Kirk never had the good fortune to know. Remember, too, that prime universe Spock told Kirk, while they were in the cave on Delta Vega, that Kirk's father lived long enough to see him become Captain of the Enterprise.
So, in the new universe, that man (his father) is dead, and the man who served with him, who took Kirk under his wing, who helped guide him, who had faith in him, who stood by him, now he's gone by an act of malice. The world has suddenly become senseless, strange, and cruel to take away Kirk's father not once, but twice.
That is why Kirk broke down.
That is definitely one valid interpretation of Kirk's connection with Pike.
But between Pike suggesting to Kirk to join Starfleet and Kirk graduating, it is unclear if Kirk and Pike had any other meaningful (and personal) conversations again. Then when Kirk became captain it seems the extent of his interactions with Pike where those meetings where Kirk had broken some regulations or the Prime Directive. This is of course evidenced in STID where you get the feeling that Pike and Kirk have had this conversation before, and if anything I got the impression that Pike was a thorn in Kirk's side. Pike was the one threaten to take Kirk away from his dream job.
But Pike is one of several people who pointed Kirk in the right direction and from which Kirk matured. Consider Prime Universe Spock mind-melding with NuKirk. There's a loose friendship between Pike and Kirk but I'm not sure it is enough for Kirk to consider Pike a father figure.
The only reason for Kirk's meltdown I can think of is a case of realising how much you cared for someone after they have died. But that comes back to whether Kirk subconsciously considered Pike to be the father he never had. Given what we do know from the two Abram's ST films, Pike and Kirk definitely had a professional relationship but that may have been it.
I thought it was pretty obvious that Pike and Kirk had a sort of father-son relationship.
Maybe that's me reading something that isn't there between the lines.
I suppose when Pike 'demotes' Kirk the implication is that he and Kirk were close. That they hadn't just met twice.
Pike helped him get his job back as well and just as suddenly he dies. I mean Kirk hasn't had time to ask his forgivness for being such a pain in the butt or even how much he meant to him this whole time.
I personally have no doubts that Pike and Kirk had a close father son relationship. In the bar scene when Pike sits down and tells Kirk that he wants him as his first officer, he says he found him because he knows him well enough to know where to look. The fact that Kirk looked away and teared up is indicative of his emotional attachment to Pike. Kirk's full on crying scene when he realizes Pike is dead further points towards the closeness of their relationship.
Again just personal opinion, but the fact that Pike went to bat and called in favors to get Jim appointed as his first office is another factor that points towards their close relationship.
These are my thoughts and for me are the main factor in why Kirk was emotionally compromised.
When I started this thread, my unasked question was going to be if Spock does relieve Kirk on these grounds, how does the plot resolve, specifically the crisis with Khan, without Kirk in command? I had visions of Spock coming to Kirk in his quarters and (in an inversion of the previous film) admitting that the latter was the right person to sit in the captain's chair.
But then I remembered that during the crisis with Khan in STID, Kirk is dead. Spock is in command anyway, so my whole what-if question kinda falls flat. Oh well.
Unfortunately - or maybe not unfortunately - writer's amnesia will set in when the plots of future missions do not require, or are inconvenienced by, the Emotionally Compromised regulation and they forget the rules they've created. Ignoring your own rules at your own convenience is not something good writers do. They recommend setting up rules you can follow and then live or die by those rules. Or you can kill the Captain as a detour around them.
As long as nuKirk continues to act like a jackass, he will never not be "emotionally compromised."
As for nuSpock... he flips out in the first movie. He flips out in the second movie (I'd describe that determination to catch and kill nuKhan to be the actions of an emotionally compromised person).
Will the third movie break this pattern and have these two actually grow up?
Most likely, Sam Kirk will look like this:
Will they do a 3rd new movie? That'll be cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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