Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Noddy, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's a good job the villain of the movie was Khan and not Nebuloid or something otherwise nu-Spock would have looked like a right idiot contacting nu-Spock only to find he'd never heard of him...
     
  2. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No he wouldn't of looked like an idiot. It was a logical thing to do. The situation was critical. He needed to find out anything useful about Khan's character (information that wouldn't just come from biographical information in the library computer).
    Honestly, what would the loss be if Spock Prime had never heard of Khan compared to the gain acquired since he did? As I said in a post in another thread, Spock apparently learned enough from Spock Prime to finally confidently formulate a plan against Khan.
     
  3. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If he'd known earlier, he probably wouldn't have given Marcus the finger and tried to run to Earth. He WAS all set to summarily execute him until Spock appealed to his better nature and the obvious fact that shooting at the Klingon homeworld is probably a bad idea no matter how good your reasons. Knowing who Khan really is -- with all the gory details that entails -- would have put him back in a more or less killing mood.

    It changes quite a bit for the audience, since we are suddenly told that Khan has no redeemable characteristics after all and that having trusted him in the first place ABSOLUTELY will not end well (even Space Seed implied as much; the original fans had to wait fifteen years to learn otherwise).

    It also changes quite a bit for Spock, who has already suspected that Khan will betray them the first chance he gets. OldSpock tells him it's not only a possibility, but a CERTAINTY, and also tells him that Khan's singlemindness is his one and only character flaw: Khan says he has done all that he has done specifically to rescue his frozen crew, so logically his betrayal should follow a similar pattern.

    That's just it: most of the people seeing this movie DON'T KNOW he's one of the most famous foes of the franchise. They have no idea who "Khan" is other than "a character from Star Trek that Kirk is famous for screaming at."

    They do not, in fact, know anything about Khan other than what they've seen in this movie. Khan turning out to be the original Big Bad is therefore a subversion of a TV trope that a lot of the audience has been conditioned to expect in movies like this: after shedding a tear in the brig and giving Kirk and the Enterprise all kinds of useful information and advice, the yougnlings are expecting Khan to do a face turn (like Harry Osborne and Sandman did in Spiderman-III or Hawkeye in The Avengers).

    If only you'd read ANY of the IDW comics or played the X-box game, you wouldn't have even noticed.
     
  4. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was a hell of a leap to assume that old-Spock would have run into a guy from the past in stasis on a spaceship floating around godknowswhere for 100s of years.

    So are we to assume that nu-Spock will contact old-Spock every time they run into trouble?

    "So this probe has turned up..."

    "Get some whales. NEXT."
     
  5. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Given the parallels in the universes, why not take the chance Spock Prime or someone Spock Prime knew of ran into Khan in the other universe?

    As far as contacting Spock Prime for every little thing goes, that's been debated before. If anything, this movie helps resolve that issue a bit. We know Spock Prime has taken an oath not to interfere with the development of the new timeline. Still, he believed it was important enough to give at least enough information to Spock this time to send him down a path that might (MIGHT) defeat Khan.

    Spock also knows he's probably violating regulations to contact Spock Prime. However he thinks it's worth it, which is part of his character development (sometimes, you do have to do what feels right). Just as Spock Prime said he's taken an oath not to interfere, then in the very next sentence says, "That said...." Someone who's 100 percent by the book would not do that.
     
  6. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It doesn't 'resolve' anything. Sure old-Spock has taken some arbitrary oath but that doesn't mean nu-Spock won't chance his arm on the off-chance that old-Spock deems it important enough to divulge info.

    Although given the 'info' he gave regarding Khan I could forgive nu-Spock for thinking not to bother...
     
  7. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I was talking about the specific moment after Spock finds out about Khan from Old Spock, not earlier. Would Kirk do anything differently had he found out right there? Maybe not. He would have remained cautious, his suspicions now being confirmed.

    I wouldn't have trusted him at all even BEFORE the revelation, and I would think he has no redeemable characteristics just from the terrorist acts alone. Kirk was taking a big risk, but he felt it was a necessary one just to get to Marcus. He probably figured that once in the bridge it would be two birds with one stone. His only fault is underestimating that one bird's recovery.

    I fail to see how Old Spock saying it changes anything. The way Khan has been portrayed before that phone call, I don't think anyone would find him trustworthy. It's Kirk's error not to tell Scotty to keep two eyes on Khan when he was down.

    Which would be fine and all, except that Khan is a terrorist and a mass murderer. That's why I felt no sympathy for him when he started tearing up. Even nuKirk saw right through him and reminded him of his crimes. And I said I said earlier, of course there would be many who do not know Khan, which is why you hype it up on promotions to generate awareness that Trek will be featuring its most famous villain. Hyping up Cumberbatch as Khan, audiences would then be interested in checking the film out to see what it is that makes the villain so great. It's a method that has worked for many other franchise films and they didn't need Leonard Nimoy to pop up and say "oh yes, he's the worst we ever faced".

    In the end, I probably would have preferred they stick with John Harrison and try to create a new iconic villain rather than slapping it in mid-way through the writing process to the point that there's no much similarity between this portrayal of Khan and the last one, character wise.

    No one should have to read comics or play video games to fill in holes left by the films.
     
  8. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    I haven't read them and I didn't see the problem. Not so much a hole as a scene you didn't like.
     
  9. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's minor, it doesn't ruin the whole thing for me, I was just responding to the idea that you need to read a book or a video game to understand the context in a film. It's that kind of thing you see in Star Wars forums where there are fans that explain plot holes in the prequels by pointing out various books, games ect.
     
  10. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    I've always ignored anything that isn't in the film.

    Back in the dark ages I was reading the Blish adaptations and seeing TOS through the eyes of a young teen via syndication. I learned back then the books can really screw you up ( and so can syndication edits). ;)
     
  11. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    It really, doesn't make that much sense Spock being so open about being from the future. So he's sworn a solemn vow never to discuss the future. It would help to keep that vow if he wasn't telling everyone he met that he's from the future. Kirk, Scotty, and Keenser know because they had to find out, and Spock decided to indulge his younger self and let him in on the secret. Fine. But to everyone else, he should only be Cousin Selek.
     
  12. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If he was nebuloid, the conversation would have been

    "Have you ever encountered a nebuloid life form that feeds on red blood cells?"
    To which OldSpock would reply: "Yes I have... you DO know how to cross-circuit to B, right?"
     
  13. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes: his phaser wouldn't have been set for stun.

    He DIDN'T trust him. But he did vastly under-estimate him.

    It's not his trustworthiness at issue here. The trope in question is the "enemy of my enemy" face turn that often occurs in superhero movies: bad guy becomes a sort-of-good guy to take down a greater evil. In Khan's case, he was going for the "We're not so different after all" redemption schtick and doing a reasonably good job of selling it. Kirk didn't buy it, but it wasn't entirely meant for Kirk anyway.

    Note that Kirk Prime actually DID give Khan a second chance and the redemption narrative is the original ending of Space Seed. It wasn't until Wrath of Khan that we found out firsthand what a dangerous lunatic he really was.

    So was Doctor Octopus, but we're still meant to sympathize with him in the final moments of the film.

    Seriously, I'm not making this up. That's been the general reaction of everyone I know who saw the movie who HADN'T seen Wrath of Khan ahead of time. For people who don't know Star Trek that well -- believe it or not, there are ALOT of them -- "Khan" is a known Star Trek villain even if the STORY of Khan isn't.

    I lump this together with all the people on these boards who were angry that Chris Pine never did a Shatner impression.

    To which I can only reply:
    [​IMG]

    Why? The movie makes explicit references to the game AND the comics. The "holes" were were WRITTEN INTO THE MOVIE specifically to give those supplemental materials something to fill:

    You don't. You're meant to ASSUME something is the case because the story wouldn't unfold that way otherwise.

    I mean, unless you think "the Mudd incident" Sulu mentions is something from the previous film (or a reference to the Nibiru scene), you're meant to assume it's something that happened on a previous mission, before the movie started. That mission is a reference to the IDW comic series, just like McCoy's "I once performed C-section on a Gorn" refers to the video game, which -- in turn -- makes mention of the Nibiru Mission in Kirk's final log entry.

    Basically, it's like Iron Man 3 referring to something that happened in The Avengers.
     
  14. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    You have no idea how pissed I was that Cumberbatch never did that.

    Tie-in material is supposed to supplement a movie, give it another angle to enjoy it. Not be something you have to read in order to follow the movie.

    Which I don't really approve of either, though it is a bit more acceptable given Iron Man 3 is referring to something that there is a guarantee that 95% of the audience is familiar with. Star Trek comics are confirmed to only be read by 2% of fandom. You don't throw references into your movie that only 2% of people seeing it (actually, less if you count non-fans) are going to get.
     
  15. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's not very Starfleet to kill someone in cold blood. They ended up freezing him in the end too, rather than killing him after extracting the blood "just to be sure".

    It's a trope I really don't care for. If audiences suddenly feel "saw-wy" for Khan because he tears up a bit, that's their problem.

    A big mistake on Kirk's part, one that would come back to haunt him. I didn't like his decision to let them live on a planet, but I liked the repercussions and how it added much to his own personal crisis.


    Way to lump me in with the rabid fans who can't tell the difference between writing and acting performances. I'm not asking for consistency in performances, I'm asking for consistency in character. I think Chris Pine is actually perfect for Kirk and has the right sensibilities and swagger for the role. However, the way he is written feels totally at odds with what I expect from Kirk but I don't blame it at all on Pine, because he's just working with what he's given. When Pine is given a moment that is reminiscent of the Kirk played by Shatner, he's VERY good at it and he never resorts to mimicking, he makes Kirk his own, much like how the Bond actors make the character their own while keeping the core intact. I point to the moment where Spock praises him for making the right decision not to kill Khan. I understand this is supposed to be a different Kirk, a Kirk without a father, but I really do not care for that interpretation because I want to see the heroic Kirk we're all familiar with but on new adventures. The ending implies that he "grew up" of sorts and gained a new respect for the chair, hopefully that will be reflective in the next film where they're on their five year mission. No more Frat Boy Kirk.

    Then there's Khan. Given this is supposed to be the same exact guy with the same background, I expect him to be aligned with the Khan we saw previously, character-wise. Cumberbatch doesn't have to mimic the performance of his predecessor, but the writers should at least do a better job of making sure the writing is consistent. If they totally wanted to remake the character of Khan, it should have just remained John Harrison.

    The Wormhole summed it best for me.

    You see, I'm actually fine with the references you mentioned right there, because they're not vital. Just little easter eggs for fun, not something the film really depended on. It also gives the Enterprise a sense of history to those who never actually read those comics. I actually thought the Mudd incident was referring to Harry Mudd, as in they have already encountered him by this point. I still consider the thing with the crew being totally casual to the conversation minor, but I detest the idea that you have to read a comic book tie on or a video game tie in just to understand why there are holes the film left open. It's not everyone's duty to read a bunch of expanded universe books to get why the STAR WARS prequels are rife of plot holes and inconsistencies. The films should have never had them in the first place and no film should ever assume everyone is going to follow through the story because they went through all the tin-in material.

    However, it is very different from references in IRON MAN 3, because at least those are expected to be picked up because it's safe to assume a major chunk of your audience has seen THE AVENGERS, which was a major film, not a comic book or video game. Far more likely than audiences knowing that the Trek comics are being brought up. If Kirk went through a very traumatic experience in a comic book and then the next film picked up on that with him having nightmares about it, I expect the film to explain why he's having those nightmares, not be asked to read the comic book. For me, the only canon that truly matters is the films. Comics, video games don't mean shit. That's how it is, not just for me, but for audiences in general.
     
  16. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The film hardly "depended" on the crew knowing about OldSpock. It's obvious they were made aware of it at some point, but we never do see when or why. They chose to address it in the tie-in material, but had they elected NOT to do so, it would have been as much of a "plot hole" as Admiral Kirk suddenly having an adult son named David Marcus that we never saw or heard of before.:bolian:

    I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what a "plot hole" is.

    Not really. The plot twist of having the Mandarin turn out to be a drunken British actor working for someone a lot worse goes right over the heads of anyone who never read the Iron Man comics and doesn't know who the original Mandarin actually was. Actually, the post-credits scene in "The Avengers" has this feature too since I haven't met anyone under the age of about 37 who knows who Thanos is.

    That basically ceased to be the case four years ago.
     
  17. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Q was an actual threat to the universe in power, but not in attitude. Khan was the most driven villain in star trek
     
  18. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I brought it up because I thought it was a peculiar thing that nobody seemed to be weirded out on the bridge, especially Bones. Why it struck me as peculiar is because Spock seemed to want to stay incognito so not to interfere with anyone else's path, even in STID he says he made that vow. Before actually seeing the film, I assumed Spock would contact via small monitor, privately. Then his whole face fills up the screen. OH. But like I always said, it's only minor. My problem with the scene isn't the bridge crews' non-reaction, it's just how much the inclusion of OldSpock feels like fan service to me. OH, IT'S NIMOY, HE'S TALKING ABOUT KHAN!!! FANGASM!!! REMEMBER TWOK? GREAT FILM RIGHT? And as I said, I preferred that Nimoy bowed out in the 2009 film because it felt like the right thing to do, having him pass on the torch, letting the new cast go onto their own unique adventures. That's what I really want for this new crew, not to revisit old ideas whether it's NimoySpock or Khan.

    I'm not saying the Spock convo itself was a hole, I just hate the idea of films leaving it to other media to explain away errors/holes/ect. That hasn't happened with Trek, so far, but I've seen that in other franchises and would dislike Trek to fall down that trap.

    That's not what I was actually talking about. I'm referring to IRON MAN 3 recalling events from previous installments such as Stark throwing the missile into the wormhole. I say those references work fine because it's safe to assume most would pick up on that given how popular these films are. You are right of the Mandarin thing though. I didn't know what the exact spoiler was, but I was aware something happened with the character that would irritate comic book readers. I'm more of a casual reader, I never heard of the villain especially since I know very little of IRON MAN in the realm of comic books. As much as I enjoyed the film, I can understand why fans might be upset, seeing that a popular villain was radically altered to their expectations. I think it's too bad, because I was curious to see the Mandarin and what makes him one of Stark's best antagonists. A proper adaptations rather than a twist. It was a clever twist though, much more clever than Khan 2.0. Much better marketed too, where Trek's filmmakers simply said "no, it's not Khan, I swear".:rolleyes:

    That's too bad then, since I have zero interest in getting into the comic books and video games, especially since I've heard awful things about the latter. As long as the Trek films don't depend too much on tie-ins, I'm totally fine with the idea of canon expanded.
     
  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    If I were young Spock, had been on a few missions but then something HUGE came up like what was going on in Into Darkness, I would be very tempted to ask my older self for advice about the very very dangerous guy the captain just went space jumping with. I think it's logical and works in-universe, as well as on the meta level some are hung up about.
     
  20. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't dispute that, I would just prefer this crew to stand on their own and take on adventures where they don't need to contact Spock Prime for advice. I could let it slide the first time because I'd accept that as a sort of passing the baton, but twice in a row is pushing it.