Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not to mention cynical to declare that all humans would pull the plug and murder someone without hesitation. I'd damn well hope no matter the circumstances of "pulling a plug" someone would hesitate.
     
  2. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I notice no one here with children has come out and said "Tough titty for my kids".
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And you think that proves something? No parent's going to say that. That's typically why someone impartial should be making these choices. Not being influenced by someone coming in and crying over their personal stake in the matter.
     
  4. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oh I'm sure some you'd find some zealots who would dance on the pinhead of morality. After all Mormons forbid blood transfusions.
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So... anyone who disagrees with you is a zealot and you point out a specific group. There's a nice bit of objectivity.

    But your scenario about the kids... okay let's have it. Your two kids are merged into one person. That means they have your children's characteristics, memories and love for you. You spend weeks with this kid, he calls you Dad, declares he loves you and it's great and despite your other two kids being gone you begin to bond.

    Now you're saying you would, without hesitation, kill that kid who's begging you not to, that he loves you, when the cure is found? That's pretty darn harsh, cold and remorseless.
     
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I see it the other way around. Harry and Naomi were the "spacial scission clones". They came from the cloned ship.

    Which is why I suspect that Harry celebrated the homecoming by running in to his parents in their home, bellowing out the ancient Joan Jett song "Cherry Bomb" whose lyrics he altered to:

    Hello Mum, Hello Dad, I'm your D-D-D-D-Duplicate Son!!!!

    Tip of the day: Listen to the song on Youtube (Joan Jett's solo version or the one she did with The Runaways, it doesn't matter) and sing it the way Harry did! It's fun! ;)
     
  7. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In my scenario the cure can be found within the day. In your scenario....fine you win, if its just me. But if I'm say divorced and the mom is begging for the two kids back. I would pull the plug.

    But again, if it's just a day, I'm pulling the plug.

    *The only reason you won at all is because you had the kid begging me. And it sure was stupid of me to let myself get bonded. Bad me!
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well it's the scenario that Voyager presents. The episode covered a period of weeks. Even Tuvix said if the cure was found a day or so later, he'd probably have gone with it. Could be genuine, could be bs, but hey.
     
  9. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Mormons do not forbid blood transfusions.

    That's Jehovah's Witnesses.
     
  10. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm still having a hard time getting past the likelihood that "Tuvix" is just delusional transporter psychosis ranting when he declares himself a seperate being with rights.

    I guess the only way to solve that would be to determine if Neelix and Tuvok are indeed dead, have their own souls and are in the afterlife.
     
  11. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My bad.
     
  12. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    All right, how about this: I bump my head and become Sam Dale. I live 10 years as Sam Dale until my family discovers me and doctors say they can return my original personality with a minor procedure.

    Is that murder?
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It is if you don't wish to undergo the procedure but are given no choice in the matter.

    Death of personality is still death.

    Not much different from Worf blanking Kurn's memory, though the motivations were evidently different. I can only assume the only reason Bashir went along with it was because Kurn had made it pretty damn clear he intended to die one way or another.
     
  14. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Responding to Dale Sams: Why are you so desperate to convince those who disagree with you?

    These are the facts from Star Trek canon:

    1. One of Starfleet's missions (indeed, it's primary mission) is to "seek out new life."

    2. Sentient lifeforms have what we call today "human rights."

    3. Tuvix is a lifeform created by a form of reproduction known as symbiogenesis.

    4. Tuvix is a sentient lifeform.

    5. Tuvix did not cause the act of reproduction that created him.

    It thus follows that Tuvix is entitled to all the rights & privileges of other sentient lifeforms in the Federation. One of those is the right to self-determination.

    If the Federation is going to go around blithely deciding what sentient lifeforms deserve rights and what sentient lifeforms don't, then they are no better than Terran governments in our history which systematically enslaved or waged genocide on innocent populations.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've got another spin on this.

    In "The Visitor" Old Jake kills himself to bring his father back to life. I don't think anyone blames him for this decision, though depending on your view of quantum mechanics he just destroyed an entire timeline.

    Now suppose someone decides that the timeline as shown isn't so hot and realizes that if Jake Sisko dies then Ben will be brought back to life and things might work out better for everyone. Are they justified in killing Jake to bring about this outcome? Heck, they're not even killing Jake per se; he'll be much happier with his dad around anyway, right? It's not Jake's fault that things have worked out the way they have either, he's just an unfortunate victim of circumstance.

    You know, I think this is my root problem with Janeway's decision in the episode: I don't believe you should commit murder based on what you believe "the greatest good" is.
     
  16. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I disagree that Tuvok and Neelix are dead. And by your logic, if Tuvok and Neelix went into a chamber of subspace we'll call 'oblivion' and Jack the Ripper came out....Janeway has no right to return Jack to get back her crew.

    Tuvok and Neelix have the same rights as Tuvix (assuming that 'Tuvix' isn't a delusional creation much like 'Sam Dale' mentioned above) And your comparison to enslavement and genocide is the textbook example of false equivalency.
     
  17. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I can't address that cause temporal mechanics makes my head spin. I can't even be sure that killing the Times Children is wrong, though my gut says it is. I'm less convinced by the claim that 'final episode Janeway commited genocide on a scale unseen in history'

    I will say, I'm enjoying this thread and all these permutations.

    I particularly like the Sam Dale moral dilemma I created which I think is much stronger than Tuvix. Especially if Sam Dale has his own family.
     
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Do you also believe that this should hold true regardless of how long Tuvix exists for? So, 50 years after the incident, Starfleet can take Tuvix into custody and force him to revert to Tuvok and Neelix?
     
  19. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well that's the same dehumanization that's been used for years to cover up murder. Like concentration camps would "take care of the job" instead of "execute the Jews" and Japanese guards would "use up the prisoners" instead of brutally working them to death.

    It's pyschologicaly valid that people will dehumanize a person in their mind to cope with killing them. Calling Tuvix a transporter accident or a person with transporter psychosis is just another example of that
     
  20. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You keep coming up with more and more outlandish scenarios that bear no resemblance whatsoever to the episode we're talking about.

    And, no, it's not false equivalency. If the Federation can decide that certain sentient lifeforms aren't deserving of the same rights as others, then they are being just as arbitrary as those Earth civilizations that decided that, oh say, my ancestors, were really animals, not human, and thus, it was ok to kill them for the "greater good" (i.e. white people gaining lots of wealth and expanding across the continent).