Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    Implied consent can only be taken if you can prove that both parties could reasonably expect to be put together in a transporter accident. Unless this outcome was so common that both parties were knowledgeable as to the risk, you cannot imply that their consent is based on an ambiguous idea that transporters are dangerous. You might reasonably consent to a danger of being killed, but I don't see how anyone could have a blanket consent that involves two different species and a blossom from a planet in the Delta Quadrant that hadn't been observed before.

    In fact the only kind of consent documents I can see that Star Fleet might require is the consent for a Commanding Officer to decide your fate should you be incapacitated in the line of your Star Fleet Service, which is what we saw Janeway actually doing in the episode.

    Actually if you watch the episode, in the beginning, Tuvix was also actively helping the Doctor to discover a way to separate him back into his two components. Could that not be construed to be a lack of consent on Tuvok and Neelix's part.

    It is entirely possible that Tuvix was not emotionally stable in the first place, and that we actually saw the beginning of his breakdown before he was separated. But remember this is "continuing consent", and what we see at the end is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok asking to be put back together.
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvok probably took a long hot sonic shower, making sure all the Neelix cooties were out of his system.
     
  3. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If we're working on the basis that Tuvix is not a unique consciousness then this would simply highlight that they (Tuvok and Neelix) changed their minds and came to prefer the shared existence of Tuvix

    That argument doesn't work....firstly, we didn't hear them say anything for or against such an outcome and secondly, they may not want to admit to wanting to be put back together
     
  4. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Actually, this circumstance was not unknown and some standard was already in play in Federation medicine.

     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It had been a month.

    The writers thought that was long enough for Tuvix to establish himself and appreciate his life.

    The entire crew was halved in deadlock, and two Janeways first plan was stick themselves back together until it wasn't and they should both fly free.

    For a moment, both Janeways agreed on their immediate destruction to create a super composite of themselves, to Tuvix everyone, their ship and everyone aboard her... Which would have amalgamated Naomi with a corpse and killed the still living version of her obviously, was a fantastic idea.

    Sam would have bludgeoned her with a hyperspanner.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  6. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    When we do something, do we always know every single possible risk? I suspect not, as sometimes something unforseen can occur that the creators/inventors never even thought could happen.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Soon there is going to be a settlement from an air disaster so staggering that, that passengers thenceforth will all have to sign binding wavers before their air plane will even think about rising off the tarmac.

    Or is this already happening?

    911 victims can't sue the binladin group (a company founded by Osama's dad.) but they can sue Saudi Arabia...

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/01/911-victims-cant-sue-binladen-group.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/911-families-ecstatic-finally-sue-saudi-arabia/story?id=21290177
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  8. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    At the time of the episode, transporters had been in use well over one hundred years.

    From Memory Beta
    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter

    So yes I do think that all the people in the Federation knew about transporters and in general come to expect to be moved from one point to another safely. I am also relatively sure that Star Fleet had a policy of protecting the safety and the individual rights of the people that chose to serve. You wouldn't get too many volunteers if you didn't.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    As safe as Transporters may seem, remember that terrorism still exists, and devices called "pattern scramblers" (DS9 Empok Nor.) are effective and deadly which can turn any transporter into a suicide booth without the transportee being at all aware that s/he is signing their own death warrant.

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter_scrambler

    Considering that there are parts of America with incidentally flammable drinking water.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2531083/Dakota-man-discovers-tap-water-flammable.html

    Like dominoes, state after state is going to have fucked up tap water eventually, but until that moment of transition, in every specific geographical location continentally vs. time, it's unclear why anyone would should stop drinking/using safe drinking water while it is still safe, before it is unsafe.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Today, dated Friday March 14 (where I live.) on Greys Anatomy, which I'm ten minutes into, an organ donor is pronounced brain dead. They legally have to wait 6 hours to be just sure. The brother of the donor then asks the Doctors if he can have the kidney he donated a month ago, back, which must have been a last ditch effort to save his brothers life THAT FAILED.

    "If I loaned him my bike, I'd want it back."

    I'll update this post in 30 minutes when the episode finishes. :)
     
  11. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    :confused: He donated the kidney. He didn't loan it to his brother. It was a gift. By his logic, if he'd given his brother a Maserati last Christmas, he'd want that back too I guess.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh he was completely irrational. That was a given.

    (From memory.)

    Brother "Hi, um, you said that you would think about giving me my kidney back. "

    Dr. Lara Croft (from a recent video game, but she looks the part apart from the b cup.) "Um, no, I don't believe that I did, um.. Oh Dr Hunt (that guy from Rome, you haven't seen Rome? So uberviolent and hypersexual.) I was wondering if we ever give back organs that have been donated?"

    Hunt "No. Never. It's illegal."

    (And it goes on, but there was a funny bit...)

    Dr Lara Croft "There is no way that we can give you your kidney back"

    Brother "See! You admit it! It's my kidney!"
     
  13. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    100 years, 1000 years etc.. what differences does the time make. Unforseen events can still occur. Once an unforseen event occurs engineers/scientists can work on designing new safety systems to prevent that event from occuring occuring.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk was split in two, and recombined 105 years earlier, Sonak was turned into a puddle of screaming meat 90 years earlier, Riker was doubled 20 years earlier, 3 years earlier 1/2 a dozen crew had to fished out of Enterprises Transporter buffer by Barclay after they had been stuck there for a week... Shit happens.
     
  15. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Air travel has been around for over 100 years, and planes still don't make it to their destination.

    Train travel has been around for well over 100 years, and trains still derail.

    Shit happens. People die.

    People also go into Star Fleet understanding that exploration is not without risks.
     
  16. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    And airlines are subject to rules and they can be held responsible for the times when shit happens and people die. Yet even when airplanes have accidents, it is still the safest mode of transportation and people getting onto airplanes have a reasonable expectation to getting off that airplane at their desired destination.
     
  17. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The problem is there is no money so who do you sue when you get squished into someone via the transport or see the horror that is your double and are mentally traumatized afterwards?
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    21st century Suing = 24th century Petitioning changes in the law (no warp travel above warp 5 because it toxic to the ecology of space!) = 24th century official complaints to get some complicit, perhaps incompetent fucktard fired.
     
  20. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I've not seen the episode in over 10 years at least, so I have to ask...

    In that month or so that Tuvix was aboard, did he ever go on any landing party missions via transporter? If they had beamed him back down immediately after he first appeared, and he magically turned back into two people again, I guess the episode could have been over by the end of the first act.
     

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