Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ If Seven or Data had owed their existences to the near-deaths of people who combined to create them, then I might agree...

    Although there WAS considerable debate over whether Data is sentient... ;)
     
  2. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's pretty good. Tom was intentionally created, but I don't think that has much bearing.

    Unfortunatly for the sake of Neelix and Tuvok being more important than Tuvix its a slamdunk argument. Had the ep been better written I'd probably argue the opposite side.

    But in the end, it's really no more 'murder' than hypothetically ordering Geordi to expose himself to lethal radiation to save the ship.
     
  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. Since Tuvix was still a Starfleet officer - Janeway recognized him as one, at any rate - it would be his responsibility to sacrifice himself for the greater good. That's what Starfleet officers are expected to do. It's expected in any decent military force, real or fictional.

    With Tuvix it's no different. If he wishes to consider himself part of the crew, he is required to follow all orders given him. Up to, and including, laying down his own life.
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, it's not a slamdunk argument. You can't decide who lives and dies summarily on who you deem to be more important or not. Not if you're going to claim anything resembling ethics. You can argue shoddy writing since the episodic nature of the show is to preserve the status quo, but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the moral ramifications and justifications.

    Geordi willingly accepted the job as chief engineer and one of those responsibilities was such a potential order. He CHOOSE that. Even then, he could choose to tell Troi to sod off in that hypothetical scenario. Of course he'd still die anyways. So he'd likely willingly save the ship. Tuvix never got a choice. He was told to choose, and then killed by Janeway when she didn't like his decision.

    When Data was ordered to report to Maddox to be dismantled so he could create more Data's he resigned and it was ruled valid by Federation courts that he had the right to choose.
     
  5. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I will admit there are a ton of arguments I can't make because of other episodes (see: The Time's Children or Tom Riker). And there's some other stuff I could argue, but they rest on the head of a pin.

    You make a good argument Star. But ultimately as Captain, Janeway has every right in the world to do what she did and say "If anyone wants to get SF to press charges they can."

    And I concede (thanks to that damn Data ruling, seriously that's crushing) it's not a slamdunk. SF officers can resign rather than not be ordered to go to their deaths*? hmmmph.

    *And I could argue about that, but again it's rest on a pinhead arguing.
     
  6. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    By the way, am I misremembering the first ep with the Phage aliens? Janeway could have returned Neelix's lungs but doing so would have killed the thieving aliens, so she chose not to?

    Now *that* is hamfisted. Returning stolen property results in the deaths of the thief? Tough.
     
  7. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Bad writing aside, Tuvix' unwillingness to be separated was in effect holding two crew members hostage, who did not and would not choose to be blended in the first place. Reversing the accident was the only logical choice.

    Arguing that it's the same as committing murder to harvest organs is just stupid.
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The only logical choice? Stupid? Simply because you say so? You certainly aren't providing any supporting evidence. Tuvix didn't take anyone hostage. He was created. Should an infant be charged with murder because he caused his mother to die in childbed? Same logic you seem to be applying.
     
  9. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nope. Try again.
     
  10. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes. Try again. Same logic you're using. :p
     
  11. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    God I wish we could have a thread called Janeway's decision to frakk a hologram instead.
     
  12. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd forgotten that.

    Yes. Janeway said then: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act."
     
  13. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would also point out that they or at least Seven was trying to talk One out of letting himself die even though him dying would have kept the Borg from continuing to come after them which kind of makes the Voyager crew come off as hypocritical jerks for the Tuvix thing.

    And then she turns around and does it to Tuvix, ah the Janeway inconsistence strikes again.
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Janeway's views "evolved".
     
  15. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    This is pretty much the decision the Doctor makes in the later "Latent Image", resulting in a nervous breakdown.
     
  16. Ryva Brall

    Ryva Brall Commander Red Shirt

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    WOW. I'd forgotten about that, too. Now that is one glaring inconsistency in her character. She went from refusing to take a complete stranger's life, even if it meant saving Neelix from being essentially a paralytic, to being willing to take the life of someone who had become a friend to the crew. What happened? :wtf:
     
  17. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Kes cried.
     
  18. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    That's all Janeway needs to motivate her to off people, change timelines, and rattle stellar empires, her favorite lady's tears. Mark, Chuckles, or Q can take a ticket and get in line, but when 7 or Kes get the sniffles it's off with their heads.
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sad thing is, that's kind of how it came off.
     
  20. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    I think it was a bold decision. The sort of really hard decisions captains, y'know, have to make because the buck stops with them. It wasn't an easy decision and I don't think she would ever be happy with having to make it but Tuvok was one of her oldest friends, so the upside of a hard decision is that two beloved crew members were returned.
     

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