Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Another factor to consider is that the EMH would be controlled by ethical subrouties, rather than emotion. And yes I know when he had only time to save one person with both patients having an equal chance to survive. Shame they didn't put one into stasis r even transporter stasis so they could save both. But that wouldmean using continuity.
     
  2. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    1. You are entirely missing my point. Of course my parents had an influence, however so did growing up, experiencing life etc etc. Tuvix has none of this. Other than the animalistic survival instinct he has a couple of hours of existence under his belt.

    2. Ethically and Morally condemning Tuvok and Neelix to die and, for their friends and families, the pain this would cause numerous people...it could be argued that the Tuvix problem must be fixed.

    3. Im struggling to fully understand that last sentence but if you are claiming the combined lives of Tuvok and Neelix are worth the same as Tuvix...I disagree. They are 'real' people. They ARE Tuvix.

    That is debatable. He is not an individual...he is Tuvok and Neelix. Who are you to claim Descartes would side with you? Does 'he' think? Who is to say after a week of life he would not begin to have a complete, delusional psychotic breakdown? Who is to say that he would not start to develop multiple personality disorder? Hell, he could become deeply troubled and even suicidal. As Descartes says, all we can know is our mind and im unconvinced Tuvix truly knows his.

    Or he could simply be cooking how Tuvok would...because he IS Tuvok.

    But he there is no Neelix or Tuvix. There is a walking, talking transporter accident. They CANT talk, share an opinion they are essential prisoners in a hybrid body. If that is the prosecutions case then it is spurious at best. He of course can THINK but his entire existence is totally dependent on being MADE of Tuvok and Neelix. He is not 'real'. He had no birth, no development, nothing. He is a transporter accident.

    Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live. [.QUOTE]

    Ugh I would have found that petulant, silly and totally ungrateful. Blaming her? I'd have found it more interesting if they both claimed to have 'remembered' everything that happened, seeing through his eyes etc.
     
  3. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    But once again it comes down to the simple fact that when they used the transporter they knew (or at the very least Tuvok) knew that there was a risk that it could malfunction and something would go wrong. guess what it did and Tuvix was the result of that malfunction.

    The question before the court is does Tuvix have the right to live?

    Everything we know about how Federation Law works even if some of is conjecture is that yes he does.

    And of course he is an individual, you say he is Tuvok and Neelix but that's not really accurate is it, if you want to follow that reasoning he is amalgamation of those two personalites which created something new and unique.
     
  4. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    1. I don't like this "the knew the risks" attitude. It was a freak accident by a technology that is used all the time. It doesn't give us all the right to abandon them because we are in an awkward situation. A situation that can be resolved.

    2. New and unique resulting in two men who have been glued together. His entire existence is reliant on those two dying for no real reason.

    Seriously, its sad but Tuvix is a tragic abomination.

    Think about this:

    Janeway: "Oh hi Mrs Tuvok..."

    Mrs Tuvok: "Hello captain, come in, would you like something to drink?"

    Janeway: "Coffee. Black...."

    Mrs Tuvok: "You requested to meet me? Is everything alright?"

    Janeway: "Uhh...yes...its about your husband...there has been an accident..."

    Mrs Tuvok: "Is he alright? What's happened?"

    Janeway: "There was a tragic malfunction with the transporter. It was a routine away mission...when we beamed up your husband with Neelix, the other member of his away party...their patterns were fused together and they rematerialized as one individual....i'm sorry..."

    Mrs Tuvok: "W...what? Cant anything be done?"

    Janeway: "Oh sure. We could just send Tuvix...*smiles*...that's what we call him now you see *giggles*...back through the transporter and separate them both. But..."

    Mrs Tuvok: [now losing her Vulcan composure] "But what!?"

    Janeway: "Eh...we kinda like him. And he said...that's Tuvix...he said he wanted to live, try out the holodeck, maybe take in a show y'know? Besides, it is bad karma and..and...Mrs Tuvok could you stop your daughter from crying? This is not easy for me."

    ;)
     
  5. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    People die in tragic accidents. It might have been a freak accident as you put it but it was an accident all the same.


    Even if he was an abomination, how does not detract from his right to live?
     
  6. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    Because of your first sentence. They aren't dead and can be easily saved. Not doing so condemns two men to a needless death.
     
  7. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    You're still notreally the question Why Doesn't Tuvix have the right to live?

    If he chooses to relinquish his life and undergo the reversal that's his right just as it's his right to refuse to undergo it.
     
  8. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    His refusal would kill two men.
     
  9. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    So you might find his actions reprehensible but that doesn't mean he losses the right to live.
     
  10. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvix is like a conjoined twin, the ultimate conjoined twin.. imagine if he was only 3/4 fused and you could still see a side piece of the pure Neelix and the pure Tuvok lumpily attached to the Tuvix core body and sometimes they twitched. Then this discussion may have gone differently.
     
  11. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A child, let's call her Abominatresse so as not to have any sympathetic feelings toward her as an individual, is asked to donate half of her liver to save the lives of her parents who are dying. They will give a slice to mom and a slice to dad.

    Abominatresse refuses, because her life is at risk in the surgery.

    Must she be forced to risk her life to save her parents?
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Depends on where this is happening.

    In some countries she can be forced.

    In international waters she could have been raised in a cage and never seen sunlight.

    ...

    Tuvix happened an episode before the Doctor encountered a problem so intractable that he risked certain death for everyone on board in a lop sided space battle, so that he could ask his Vidiian girlfriend for the solution to the issue he was too thick to figure out himself.

    Why wasn't the Tuvix question so dire that asking the Vidiians for the help seemed like a reaosnable idea?
     
  13. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Someone who understands Decartes?

    Yes, he does....demonstrably

    Now you're getting hysterical....who is to say none of that will happen...who is to say that a magic bean won't shoot out of his arse and save the human race...who

    and since when did developing a mental illness mean....your existence is less valid....less real

    He doesn't need to know it...he only need possess it....Descartes considered perception of existence with a mind (as opposed to physical senses) means you exist...where you exist & what you exist as....who knows....but you do exist

    From the Decartes point of view....they could simply be defined as dead...whereas, Tuvix exists in the here and now....his existence coming in lieu of Tuvok and Neelix doesn't reduce the validity of his existence in any way (and having the ability to bring them back also doesn't)

    Data had no birth....the doctor had no birth.....but they are eventually recognised as having consciousness....of existing....again, i go back to Descartes....consciousness means existence and Tuvix has that in abundance

    No....it's actually quite profound....it demands that you accept an individual consciousness is at work....and Tuvix contradicting the (presumed) wishes of his composit hosts demonstrates that very clearly

    You're turning this into a very black and white issue which i don't think it can ever be....plus i wasn't referring to Tuvix so much as Janeway.....i'm bascially saying that you don't have to accept that Tuvix wasn't real in order to defend Janeway from the accusation of murder....they are not mutually exclusive

    Janeway's decision was right (and she did not commit murder) but equally, Tuvix was very definitely real and very definitely an individual with his own consciousness
     
  14. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No seriously what if LUMPS of Tuvok and Neelix were sticking out of the sides of Tuvix, what if you could see pure pieces of Tuvok and Neelix?! There is existence is being erased by the pro-Tuvix crowd because they cannot be seen. So conveniently invisible.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This is why Descartes does not work.

    Tuvix has the perspective of three minds, and can compare reality between those three to more accurately define reality as real and not mischief.

    Also... Tuvok is a telepath, who has seen reality through the eyes of possibly hundreds of other peoples eyes and other senses and rationality.

    And even if you don't count telepathy as an end around to Rene's first meditation.

    We (Neelix and Tuvok) think therefore he (Tuvix) is.

    Which is enough vantage points to triangulate truth.
     
  16. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    You'll have to do better than that. :lol:



    And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?



    You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

    Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.



    I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to prove....my point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.



    In what way are they dead? They are both strolling about, fused together, minds merged, as 'Tuvix'. They are far from dead. It is unclear just how dead their minds actually are.



    They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.

    It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.

    'Very definitely' again is assumptive. There is nowhere near enough evidence in the episode to completely give a definitive answer on this. We see very little of him and he wants to live....great. As any animal would.

    At the end of the day, anyone who calls Janeway a murderer is bordering on hysterical and she made the most ethical, moral decision in a difficult, tragic circumstance.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The only way that Tuvix is an animal, is if Neelix and Tuvok are also animals.

    Janeway put him in charge of Voyager's weapons and security.

    He was in charge of killing people and almost killing people.

    That's not a job you want to give to someone who is soulless or deficient.
     
  18. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That was pretty stupid of Janeway, though a typical Star Trek thing to happen.

    He should have spent his time pottering about, maybe helping the EMH so that the EMH could surreptitiously observe him.
     
  19. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    What are you talking about? Of course they are. We are all animals.

    That'd have been fascinating. Perhaps signs of mental trauma could have been shown.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Is "only" an animal?
     

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