Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    It took Neelix over a day to decide that he would give up his entire life, sacrificing his massive reserve of youth to raise a child in Eilogium.

    That's how little he thought of taking Kes' Cherry.

    The joyous rush of popping it, planting his flag right down deep inside her, wasn't close to the equivalency of the torture of the 7 months it would take to raise this fuzzy brat to maturity when they could leave home.

    Would T'Pel have accepted Tuvix as good enough, and better than nothing?
     
  2. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    I suspect that T'Pel would've rejected Tuvix, unreservedly. She wouldn't have considered his Neelix qualities as an "improvement," that's for sure. What effect this fusion had on his reproductive organs, Roddenberry only knows, but no good can come from that. Even their children would be taking the Kholinar to purge the shame of having a rodent for a father. So your answer ... is "no," sir.
     
  3. BruntFCA

    BruntFCA Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    A Mile High
    Of course Janeway was wrong, as she told the Vidiians in Phage-

    "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act".
     
  4. urbandefault

    urbandefault Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Location:
    Lemon Wacky Hello
    BUT ...

    She didn't kill Tuvix. He was the product of a transporter accident. She rescued her crewmembers, which is what I would expect any Starfleet Captain to do.

    Later, if Neelix or Tuvok had any objection to the separation they should have said so. I'm sure that if they had wanted to be rejoined, someone could have found a way to do it.

    It's not really any different than restoring a changed timeline, in the process eliminating people who didn't exist before.

    I don't get the outrage.

    It would be interesting to hold a mock trial here on the forum. Appoint a defense counsel and a prosecutor, a judge (or panel of judges), select a jury, and call witnesses. Present your case, and let the facts decide.
     
  5. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Location:
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    Agreed, if the accident had made a body with two heads talking there would be no question about separating them. But, because it has one head folks question it. The show establishes him having the thoughts of both in his head, no surprise since the software of two has been blended together. Neither character died, they got combined, and now the combination is running on one brain and establishing itself that way. Janeway just unblended the mix.

    Tuvix is being treated as untouchable, unlike the thing with two heads, because people are not willing to see the combined brains as the same as the joined body of the thing with two heads example. Brains were mixed together then unmixed. The viewer, with unsurprising atavism is viewing Tuvix as a new soul, rather than blended software. No souls died in the production of this episode.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    So anyone who was conceived through a broken condom, or off a dirty toilet is not guaranteed the right life by the Federation?
     
  7. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Location:
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    What does this strawman have to do with Tuvix? The story establishes him as the thing with two heads. He says he is both of their memories together at the outset. In this story, the brains have been blended into one. Why can't they be unblended? What makes the brain sacrosanct beyond the rest of the body, or should a Siamese like twin of Tuvok and Neelix not be separated? Why should users of the transporter not have the assurance than transporter fuck ups like this episode be fixed? If we allow it, why not blend other crew members to make more useful characters?
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    If your parents had so much love in their lives that they wanted to create a life, then you deserve to live.

    If your parents don't know how to use contraceptives, and your continuing existence annoys them, they are allowed to stuff you in he microwave and turn it on of 5 minutes.

    If your parents is a transporter accident, which in itself isn't even in a person, then of course some dippy bureaucrat is allowed to muck up the verdict of Solomon while proving that she is wearing big girl pants.
     
  9. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Location:
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    You still haven't explained how the brain is sacrosanct above the rest of the body. If the brains were not combined there would be no issue with separating them. Why can't the brains be separated, unlike the rest of the body?

    If you want to argue that Tuvix is a new consciousness (also, explain how that is different from a soul, rather than just chemicals firing neurons) that shouldn't be separated, how do you justify separating the consciousness that is the Borg to get Seven on board. Why shouldn't her request to not be separated be honored like Tuvix's desire to not be separated?

    Looks to me in 'Tuvix that Janeway is just separating another collective consciousness like the Borg.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    When did I say that brains are sacrosanct?

    The Doctor wanted to kill (the 29th Century Drone) One just to get his Mobile Emitter back.

    Telepathic races (Was Tuvix telepahtic like Tuvok was telepathic?) can identify the precise nature and qualities of a conciousness as distinct lifeforms.

    Meanwhile the Borg, the Bynars and Data's grampa can digitize personalties suck them out of brains and pump them back into any brain (or hard drive) they feel like, so clealy "personalities" can be scientifically quantified, duplicated and mass produced, and editted to any degree along the way, to admit that personalities are scientifically quantifiable too.

    Below decks, a complete copy of Tuvok's mind was parked inside Lon Suder's mind althroughout the Tuvix incident.

    Tuvix could have jumpstarted the Tuvok locked away in there to take over Lon's body for long enough to figure out all Tuvoks thoughts on the Tuvix question, and really with a fully functional Tuvok and a fully functional Tuvix, does their destructions justify the return of Neelix, Tuvok and Lon Suder?
     
  11. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Location:
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    I'd say Janeway is being consistent. If the Borg consciousness isn't respected, why should Tuvix's be? Why is it OK to disregard Seven's desire to remain in that collective, but necessary to respect the Tuvix collective? She is pulling individuals out of their collectives.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    janeway said that Seven was allowed to return to the Collective later after she had been taught what it meant to be an individual.
     
  13. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Location:
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    Later? Who is Janeway to decide when Seven is ready? What of the Prime Directive, shouldn't Janeway keep out of interfering here? Besides, you're avoiding the point, why is the Borg collective one where separation can be forced, but Tuvix can't be forcibly separated?
     
  14. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Of course, the real reason Tuvix had to go was that he was hopelessly creepy and gave everyone the heebie-jeebies.
     
  15. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Boy, you said it, Coop ... and if sending him back through the transporter wasn't going to be an option, dropping him off at the first "M" Class Planet certainly should have! STAR TREK always did creepy, perhaps, a little too well ...
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    I loved Tuvix, he was adorable. Why are you all picking on him why why
     
  17. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Location:
    Scotland
    urbandefault has answered that very well.

    Tuvix is not real. He was not murdered. The weird analogies people are using here [broken condoms etc] just dont fit the scenario. Tuvix was not conceived, he was not born, he doesn't actually exist. He is a forced union of two men. His 'sentience' and 'feelings' are in reality just an expression of the minds of the two men he is.

    I actually find it a little scary that some of you would allow 'Tuvix' to 'live'. It is the creation of a transporter accident. The two men inside are real. Just because it can make a sad face and say it wants to live doesn't change the fact that it is not real.

    I have never understood the outrage over this.
     
  18. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Forced implies a deliberate action.

    Real

    actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.

    So yes Tuvix was real.
     
  19. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    You're taking the Mickey, here! You mean you would actually give Tuvix your hugs and kisses, if such a thing were possible? I find that very hard to believe ...
     
  20. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Location:
    Scotland
    But Tuvix is not an individual. He is a hybrid. One in which Tuvok and Neelix had no choice.

    It is natural that he shows an instinct for self preservation and it is sad...but it is irrelevant as the two men had to be saved. In many ways Tuvix is not even dying...he is being broken down into his component parts.
     

Share This Page