Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. urbandefault

    urbandefault Commodore Commodore

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    My feelings exactly.
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why can't you read a thousand posts?
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Given that all one thousand consist of just two basic posts, slightly rephrased each time, and repeated over and over, why read them all?


    :)
     
  4. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A true completist wouldn't ask such a thing T'Girl!
     
  5. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    So you are ok with murder then?

    Tuvix was a sentient being, and in a sense born on a Federation Starship which would make him a Federation citizen and as such entitled to all the protections that come with it, and even if he wasn't a Federation citzen when onboard a Federation ship, Federalion law applies. Murder is against Federation law. Therefore Janeway was wrong and is guilty of murder.
     
  6. urbandefault

    urbandefault Commodore Commodore

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    No one died. Two people who were combined through no fault of their own were restored by Janeway's order. But if that's how you define murder ... sure. I'll take Murder for $200, Alex. ;)
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Naomi was a transporter accident.

    Did they reintegrate the quantum duplicate walking around with the baby corpse in the EMH's freezer at some point?

    B'Elanna was a transporter accident after Faces.

    Drone was a transporter malfunction and Mulcaehey would have insisted that part of his essence was stolen and that he medically needed it inserted back inside him.

    From Homestead

    From in the Flesh

    the Indian only suspects that his uniform was in the buffer... But what if he had metabolized it?
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    In an accident people can die, be injured etc.. but when someone dies in an accident we don't call it murder. Tuvix was a sentient being and as such was entitled to the full protection of Federation Law. Also Janeway was hadly an impartial judge in the matter. If Tuvix refuses to undergo a procedure he is fully entitled to do so.

    If we look back to TNG's "Measure of a Man". The court ruled that Data could refuse to undergo Maddox's procedure, We have a similar situation, Tuvix is refusing to undergo a procure, as precedent has been set the court should have ruled in Tuvix's favour and Data was in Starfleet. Remember Tuvix had no control over his creation, murdering someone because of how he came into being is wrong.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Data could not refuse an order without resigning his commission, it was only then after he tried leaving Starfleet that he was told that he was Federation property, and that commission or not he was still owned by Starfleet.

    Was Tuvix a commissioned Officer, and if so did he try to resign his commission?
     
  10. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Well if he wasn't an officer, that would make him a civillian. Isn't it the job of Starfleet to protect civilians not murder them?
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Janeway agreed to murder the crew of the Equinox to appease some angry space dolphins.

    Not the best moral compass.

    Tuvok had to go through this again in Riddles.

    But Janeway having not learned her lesson the first time did not send a full security detail to drag Tuvok back to Sick bay for another neutering.
     
  12. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Janeway did not murder Tuvix....because nothing of him was actually destroyed....his mind and body continued but in an altered state

    At best, you might argue that she allowed a unique consciousness to be lost by the natural step of bringing Tuvok and Neelix back

    If you're 6 year old daughter screams that she wants to be six forever (and keep that 6 year old consciousness alive for all time) the fact that time allows it to be lost as she develops into an adult with a new unique adult consciousness, does not mean that time is a murderer....and if it does, then your definition of murder is massively abstract

    It's a huge grey area....and it would be a simplistic mind that dismisses her actions as murder

    As for the doctor refusing to do it...that isn't a huge issue for me....if Janeway walked into sickbay and told the doctor to stab Kes to death....would he simply say "sorry captain, i can't do that but here, have the knife"....i doubt it....he'd make an impassioned plea, he'd try to protect Kes.....with Tuvix, he doesn't make any such impassioned speech to save him....he simply says "i can't do it" then just stands aside
     
  13. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Was Tuvix a sentient being?

    I think most of us would agree he was, and as such being on a Federation ship was under the protection of Federation Law.

    What offense did he commit?

    I think most of us would agree he didn't commit any offense.

    Was General Order 4 violated?

    As far as we know violting that order is the only offense which carries the death penalty.


    Tuvix can not be held responsible for how he came into being, it wasn't his fault that his creation resulted from the merger of Neelix and Tuvok. We generally don't punish people for things over which they had no control.

    So what crime did Tuvix commit to warrant the cestation of his existance? Wanting to live is not a crime.
     
  14. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But his existence was not ended...that's the point....why do people keep missing that part....he continues to exist in Tuvok and Neelix

    The only thing that was ended was a personality (one which was entirely dependent upon the existence of Tuvok and Neelix)....and ending that cannot be defined as murder otherwise, Janeway forcing Borg Seven to abandon her Borg personality in favour of her human personality would also be classed as murder....Samantha Wildman allowing Naomi to grow up and develop an adult personality that is different to her current personality would be classed as murder

    Murder has not taken place....just a very weird transporter accident that brought up some very interesting questions about the nature of sentience, existence, consciousness and individuality

    One of the best Trek episodes ever
     
  15. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    By your reasoning Tuvok's and Neelix's existance wasn't ended as they existed in Tuvix.

    We agree that Tuvix was a sentient being do we not? So what do we call the deliberate ending of a sentient's being existance?

    The matter before the court was/should have been does Tuvix as a sentient being have the right to choose his own path?

    The episode has certainly caused debate
     
  16. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But (philosophically speaking) I just don't accept that his existence was ended (only changed) so we'll have to agree to disagree there

    Yes he does...and that right was definitely violated by Janeway....but....the consequences of that decision do not make her a murderer (especially given the bizarre and unique circumstances)

    The best analogy i can come up with (and it's not very good) is this. Imagine a judge bans you from driving even though you've broken no driving law whatsoever. One day you get the bus to work & it crashes killing everyone on board (including you).

    Would you have died if you hadn't been banned from driving - no

    Did the judge infringe upon your rights - yes

    Does that mean the judge is a murderer - no

    Not the best analogy but you see what i'm getting at. Janeway is both guilty and innocent depending on what you're accusing her of....and personally, i do not accept that the accusation of murder can be upheld for the reasons i stated earlier

    I think it may be one of the most profound episodes in all Trek....i'm still amazed the writers didn't lose their nerve and simply make Tuvix change his mind at the end (yeah, sure i'm happy to bring Tuvok and Neelix back....go ahead captain) an episode where they really got it right
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Short or two months after conception, it's an abortion.

    Tuvix was one month old.

    They were fine.
     
  18. TheGoodStuff

    TheGoodStuff Commander Red Shirt

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    It isn't murder though. She is fixing a horrendous accident. I think that is where some people are mistaking the real issue and viewing this as some moral, murderous wrongdoing.

    Here is a controvertial statement: Tuvix isn't real. He is a scientific accident. Tuvok and Neelix are real and their bizarre fusion has resulted in a hybrid mess. Is it sentient? Surely it is. However, is it a being? No...its two. [As I say with lives and careers, friends, hopes, dreams].

    I find it deeply immoral to just leave Tuvix to exist. Its condemning two real people to die. For me, Janeway had the guts to make the right call when her supposed supporting officers washed their hands of an awkward problem [and had no problem welcoming back Tuvok and Neelix].

    Claiming Tuvix had rights, or was 'born' on the ship is just...odd. He is an [easily] fixable transporter accident. 'He' is not actually real, he is two other people.

    Janeway was right.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Then why did Janeway and Seven remain integrated after Relativity?

    Several doppelgängers with slightly different memories were stuffed into each other that would have gone on to lead sightly different lives in their own timelines or fantastically different lives on a single Voayger with Three Captain Janeways and three Seven's of Nine(You don't htink the plural is like this? like Cul's de sack is the plural of Cul de sac.).
     
  20. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    In what way was Tuvix not real? He was a living breathing sentient being. He wasn't responsible for the accident that resulted in his creation.

    And in a sense everyone born today is the culimnation of two people or rather two sets of DNA, their mother and father. In the case of Tuvix they would be Tuvok and Neelix. And in nature aren't there some species that die after giving birth?