Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I wikipedia-ed the guy who played Tuvix and he is from the same town I work in currently. :lol:
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He did play the scene of the morbid victim here to perfection... the scene were he was begging for his life, trying to find someone to support him... and no one would was just plain tragic. Good work in the sense of setting a depressing scene.
     
  3. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I think morally it might have been wrong once Tuvix announced his wish "not to die", but TV is more mighty than the morale. The show needed Tuvok and Neelix. Moreso Tuvok... but yeah, still. It was a show and losing two of its main characters in one episode would have been a no-no. :ack:
     
  4. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Tuvok and Neelix weren't dead. Tuvix was the product of a transporter accident.

    To accept the results of the accident and move on when you have the technology to retrieve the two is not logical.
     
  5. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    He did do a good job. You feel his pain in the scene and you almost don't know what Janeway is going to do.

    I kind of felt cheated that they never brought him up again. She could have suffered some guilt or something.

    But even though Tuvix was gone and I felt his pain...once I saw Tuvok and Neelix transform back to their normal selves and Tuvix was just gone...I felt relief too. It was a weird emotion watching it for the first time.
     
  6. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, you can. And if Tuvix truly remembers what a Starfleet officer is expected to do - lay down his or her life to save a crewmate - then it is indeed cowardly for him to insist on putting his own life above that of Tuvok and Neelix.

    Besides, Tuvix should have remembered the Vulcan logic he got from Tuvok. To restore Tuvok and Neelix is the logical move. There's no advantage to Tuvix's existence - he's not a better tactical officer than Tuvok, nor is he a better cook and ambassador than Neelix. And the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number is also a logical one as well.
     
  7. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Exactly. It's a no-brainer. And calling yourself a separate sentient creature that deserves its own life doesn't make it true.

    "I am Tuvix. If you separate me it will be murder."

    "No it won't. You're a combined creature. What is so hard to understand about that."
     
  8. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvix: I have the will to live of two men!

    A lot of good that did him. He tried to play the numbers game right back at Janeway.
     
  9. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So then since you're attributing a Starfleet officer's duty and a Vulcan's logic to Tuvix's actions, you're basically conceding accident or not that he is a person and he accordingly should have the choice of what to do with his life.

    As for "advantages" to Tuvix's existence? Well Tuvix solved a problem in a day that had been stumping Tuvok for weeks and Janeway even said in her log entry his cooking was better and Neelix wasn't even Ambassador yet at that point. But that doesn't matter. You can't wave an executioner's axe over someone's head just because you do or don't think they're useful. Not in any civilized society anyways.

    As I said, I'll concede the point that Tuvix was a coward for not sacrificing himself to save two others. Heck, Tuvix did that in the episode himself. But just because you or Janeway doesn't like his decision, that doesn't mean he loses all his rights as an individual. He was a person and he was executed for the crime of wanting to live. That's basically it.
     
  10. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Quite the contrary.
     
  11. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Using this logic, then, you would be in favor of executing someone for organs? After all, one person can provide a heart, 2 lungs, a liver a pancreas, a small bowel & 2 kidneys. That's at least 8 people saved.
     
  12. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ No, because no human being who ever existed was created via the same method that Tuvix was. There's no "real-life transporter accidents" which eliminated two people and reconstituted one person from the combination of the two. That is an exactly unique circumstance.

    Also, if Tuvok and Neelix lived on while Tuvix existed, then Tuvix lived on as part of Neelix and Tuvok, since IIRC both of them remember being Tuvix.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You keep changing your argument and that one's circular. Tuvix himself used that one in the episode saying Tuvok and Neelix lived inside of him.
     
  14. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The combination of two, but the best of neither. This could be the Frankenstein story, or The Fly. Any way you play it, the "creature" is doomed.
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvix was using that argument (partially) to justify his own existence. So if Tuvix claims the right to live because Tuvok and Neelix lived in him, then why do Tuvok and Neelix not get to claim the same thing because Tuvix lives in THEM?
     
  16. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If your wife were sucked into your computer (bear with me) and suddenly the computer started claiming sentience and talking and saying it was alive and deserved life and that if you return it to being a computer and your wife you'll be commiting murder...you'd laugh and fire up the ol molecular separator without a moments hesitation.

    It's exactly the same thing.

    Bracing myself for the barrage of "What? No it isn't!" It is. It may be a bad analogy, but it is the same thing.
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So suppose John and Larry died in a car accident and their organs were used to create a new person(bear with me) named Tom. So while Tom's happily living his life for weeks another mad doctor discovers how an anti-car crash cure but needs the organs back. So he decides to kill Tom to harvest his organs to revive John and Larry. Surely it's not murder, because Tom was different! And we know how bad that is in society, it's worth death sentences. Same thing.
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You tell me, you're the one using the same argument to justify Tuvix's murder.
     
  19. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What would Kirk do?

    Kirk would explain in a short but passionate speech what brought about Tuvix' existence. He would appeal to both the logical and emotional sides of Tuvix and convince him that while the idea of sacrificing himself is difficult and painful, it is the right thing to do.

    Then Kirk would stun the creepy bastard and shove him into the transporter.

    That's how a real captain does it.
     
  20. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, we don't have cyborgs in our world, either, or sentient robots, yet I don't know a Trek fan who would say that Seven or Data don't have the right to self-determination.