Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was a good call ...
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Funny you should you bring up the Riker boys. There would have been arguments that they needed to be integrated because they were both thieves stealing the real Tom Riker's Life... Mean while in Up the Long Ladder and Time Squared, both Riker and Picard murdered their own duplicates so there wouldn't be any confusion about who gets the presents under the Christmas tree later on in the year.

    In Parallels Big beard Riker wanted to stay in the new reality he discovered, only to see that his dopplegangers were still fucking petty about sharing Christmas presents, so he was killed rather than risk a half full stocking from Santa.

    Oh, and Marakov, it was murder to leave Tuvix intact. Getting her vital crewmen back was hardly as important as stopping on the ongoing murder of her two friends being squashed together inside a cosmic vice... The problem being is that it was murder to separate them as well. :)
     
  3. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I consider them dead as soon as the transporter screws up their pattern. They basically don't exist anymore. Actually I think they're dead as soon as they get beamed anywhere in the first place, but that's another discussion.
     
  4. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would have make a Thomas Riker clone of Tuvix, separated the original, and gotten all three at once for diversities sake
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But in that TNG Transportaphobia episode of Barclay's we see that people remain conscious during transport, so even though your brain is being pulled apart, your mind stays intact.

    So Tuvok and Neelix have to contemptuously look at them selves being mashed and murdered inside the prick who's thinking about killing them again/more to get their women?

    Meanwhile, you can't guarantee the ratios, and you'd most likely end up with two Tuvixs or Neevoks.
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No he was saying transporter clone Tuvix. Now you have two Tuvix's. After they get over being tongue tied, then they separate one of them into Tuvok and Neelix.

    While that seems a "please everyone" ending on the surface, Second Chances clearly established both Riker's were separate people. So you're still killing someone against their will. But that would put them in full God mode, the power to give and take life.
     
  7. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    If that were to happen, she could just take the easy answer, like James T. Kirk would: "I'm the Captain."
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not only did I get that, but I've heard it a hundred times and probably 10 noobs in this thread alone have made the very same suggestion. It's possible you misunderstood what I said.

    Janeway felt that Tuvok and Neelix were suffering a living death in side Tuvix which must be complete torture.

    Creating a duplicate doesn't change that.

    Neelix and Tuvok are still inside Tuvix being tortured, even if a completely different Tuvok and neelix are wandering around not being tortured.

    Torture is not cool.

    Sure she also argued that, their families would be happier if Tuvok and Neelix came back, but these families now, under this scenario, have to deal with what superficially looks like the loved one they have always known, as well as the composit jerk trying to horn his way into the family festivities and vactions.

    Meanwhile if Tuvix started having children with willing and consentual girlfriends or wives, would they call Tuvix their father, or go straight to the genetic sources, side stepping the middle man and give all their love to one of the half viable photocopied beings calling themselves Tuvok and Neelix and then a generation back further as these kinder start asking about grand parents, and then geat grand parents?
     
  9. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If Tuvok and Neelix were suffering inside Tuvix he wouldn't be against the separation. Infact he'd probably be clutching his head in pain. He seems very composed the entire episode. Tuvix only refers to them as thinking of them as parents, so I get the impression there's only one consciousness in him - this new one.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Suffering metaphysically from being denied their own lives.

    Oh, and Tuvix was a selfish asshole, but last I checked, that's not grounds for a state sanctioned execution.

    Janeway and Tuvok had a 5 thousand year old sentient STD making love to their brains, who they took no analysis or concern towards before terminating the abosolute genocide there of.

    Put enough of it in a specimen jar for prosperity is all I say, before you burn her brain free of this cosmic clap older than human civilization.

    It's like they're all dead on the inside where normal people have feelings.
     
  11. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't really care about preserving every individual species of ever germ and virus and long extinct race.

    They will always be alive if they live forever in a test tube.. no.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Kim turned the universe upside down... WAIT.

    Brannon who wrote this episode, expressed the multiverse as a multitude of "timestreams".

    It was a weird use of the word almost as if Braga didn't understand how everyone else in science fiction before him had used the word.

    Did Kim feel that he had to retemper the Universe because it was unfair that Daniel Bird got his shitty lot trapped in the Delta Quadrant, or that it was that Tom got a shitty lot being forced to stay in the AQ sidestepping his path to redemption building himself up from being a scummy perpetually wasted dickhead?

    I had thought that he changed the universe jiggled the fate of everyone that was alive and would ever be yet to be born, because either Tom was being tortured by a life unbecoming him, or Daniel Byrd was being tortured by a life unbecoming him, in either case he took a scalpel to reality because one or two particular human beings mostly, somewhat happy with their lives needed to be murdered and replaced to satisfy Kim's version of what is ideal.

    My revelation however is if Kim just jumped timestreams, rather than rewrote a timestream, then he left behind an intact timestream where Daniel Byrd was still in the Delta Quadrant and Tom Paris was going to go to jail for ever for stealing that shuttle, that is if Tom survived Harry Chakotaying the prototype into the side of a space woogy.

    Kim killed Tom, and didn't save Daniel.

    What a dick.

    If Kim doesn't care about screwing over universes, why should Janeway care about screwing over germs?
     
  13. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This episode kinda makes me think Picard would hate working with Janeway. Imagine Janeway in I, Borg - she would instantly use the guy against the borg. I can't see Picard doing anything but arguing for Tuvix's rights in this situation. But it seems in Nemesis Janeway & Picard are friendly, huh.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Icheb and Seven both had Borg AIDs and she didn't use them.
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To me, seeing Janeway as an Admiral only confirms that it's helpful on a resume to be evil or corrupt. Why do you think Kirk didn't cut it as an admiral? :p
     
  16. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm probably the only person who has ever watched this episode to not think that Janeway's decision was in any way controversial. I believe that she faced, essentially, the same basic decision faced by any person who has ever had to make a decision regarding the usage and/or removal of life support, and see absolutely no controversy in that kind of decision.

    It's hard to say whether or not a Federation court of law would've agreed with the decision from a moral standpoint, but I have a hard time believing that such a court would have legally punished her for the decision.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In TOS epiosde Courtmartial Kirk was almost convicted of murdering a crewman and covering it up as a command decision.

    In TNG Data avoided being murdered by proving through a binding trial that he was a life form with guaranteed rights under federation law not to be murdered by a silly command decision from his superiors.

    You don't have to follow illegal orders.

    Was it a legal order?

    Although even Deanna is allowed to order a lower ranked officer or crewman to their death, it's probably still on the books merely a hundred years later that the only reason they kill you is becuase of an excursion to Talos Four.

    No one went to Talos IV.
     
  18. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In STID when they said Harrison had gone the one place they could not go I assumed it was Talos IV.. for like two seconds LOL.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I just assumed John was going to put the Enterprise on blocks and run the engine in reverse so his dad didn't find out he was playing hooky.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Picard seemly went to Kronos every third weekend, why can't Kirk go there?

    It's likely also helpful if you're capable of making the tough decisions and are willing to put your own people lives ahead of a transporter accident.




    :devil:
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013