Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    C'MON!! I'm not being subtle here!
     
  2. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    The Man of La Mancha to whom Janeway has some similarity.
    [yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUmYX-hUyN8[/yt]
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You're all just fucking with me.
     
  4. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What if Tuvix had announced, "I hate these ears, they make me look like an elf! Doctor, please remove the points." I don't think the EMH would have done it, he would have had residual feelings that Tuvok would not have wanted his ears bobbed.
     
  5. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I've explained that Neelix and Tuvok were dead five ways till Sunday, and I'm not gonna repeat myself again. But I will address this:

    Possibly. I haven't seen that episode, so I don't know enough about it to come to an informed conclusion. I don't rule out the possibility, though.

    Okay, listen: I do not hate Janeway, and I'm not sure why you would think I do. I actually rather like the Janeway character. I think Kate Mulgrew is an awesome actor, and I think it's absurd that there haven't been more female captains in Star Trek, or more female series lead characters.

    I regard Janeway's decision in "Tuvix" to be an outlier in her characterization, as I simply do not think a starship commander compassionate enough to protect an innocent world like the Ocampa from foreign aggression that she would willingly strand herself across the galaxy, would be the type to kill an innocent man.

    So from an out-universe perspective, I think it's bad writing that's inconsistent with the character.

    From an in-universe perspective, however, if I were an admiral at the Starfleet JAG office? I would think Janeway amazing, a hero, someone who saved her crew and the Federation many times over. But I would also think that in this instance, there is probable cause to indict her for murder, and I would want her put before a court-martial for it.

    A person can have very complex attitudes about someone's actions, and can think that they did something truly, utterly wrong, without hating them.
     
  6. Lt. Uhura-Brown

    Lt. Uhura-Brown Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Where did the extra mass go when Tuvix was created? Assuming Vulcans have a similar mass as humans, and Talaxians with their dense musculature have slighter more mass, squeezing all that matter into a Tuvix-shaped object should have made him weigh anywhere between 400 and 500 lbs or so?

    However if Tuvix's density was halfway between Tuvok's and Neelix's, where did they extra matter go to, and return from after the two were restored?
     
  7. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    It makes as much sense as Riker being split into two copies. You aren't suppose to think of the technobabble, but the drama.
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    You'd think that by the 24th century, there'd be some definitive Federation law on the personhood status of the products of transporter accidents that would cover Brundlefly-type cases.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You know what Quantum indeterminacy is.

    (It's not even a question.)

    Those two men were simultaneously alive and dead at the same time.

    So yes.

    They were dead.

    You are right.

    But they also weren't.

    All these Starfleet jokers are Post-Plankian-Physicists.

    Um...

    How exactly does a Heisenberg compensator compensate?
     
  10. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Very well thank you. :p

    At least they acknowledged the Heisenberg uncertantity principal.
     
  11. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Goodbye, goodbye! I am going to see Star Trek Into Darkness for a third time!!

    Y'all have fun now. Don't fuck too much with Guy, he perturbs.
     
  12. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Enjoy the movie teacake.
     
  13. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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  14. Shane Houston

    Shane Houston Commander Red Shirt

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    I call bullshit. I don't care if you say Tuvok and Neelix were dead or not, you're wrong. You can't have a living Tuvix and claim that the cells that make him sentient, those of a combined Tuvok and Neelix , are dead yet alive at the same time. Regardless of the outcome of the transporter accident, Tuvok's and Neelix's wishes would count..since the two men are still existing, just as the Dax symbiont does with it's hosts. I think you want to think of them as dead because it makes the dilemma of the episode more clear cut that way. But the way it was written, there is no evidence whatsoever that Tuvok and Neelix are dead.

    I'm glad you don't hate Kate Mulgrew or Janeway, but by your arguments Sisko, like I said above, would be just as much a murderer as you're saying she is. He forced a combined life form, Verad Dax, to become seperated, causing harm to the host for life, to save Dax's life. I would like you to watch the episode or the Enterprise episode where they cloned Tucker and forced his clone to his death to save Tucker, another close friend of a commanding officer.

    Maybe I'm biased, but I did go back and watch this episode again so I could have an informed opinion and a fresh perspective about Janeway's motives. There are some things she's done I'd question or court martial her for, but not this. The episode would have been different if the EMH had not refused to do it, but you have to remember the Doctor himself is a program influenced by thousand of doctor's through out the Federation. You don't know how many of those doctor's, for example Doctor McCoy, would have done the separation. And that would not have made him a murderer, just treating an ill patient.

    You know what sucks, and the creators of the episode did this just so we can have a discussion like this, but it sucks that the episode ended with the captain walking out of sickbay and no comments from Neelix or Tuvok, letting us know if they remember being joined as Tuvix.
     
  15. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    It is not the particular cells that define a mind as existing or not existing; it is the particular system of interaction between the neurons. It is not the particular instruments that define a symphony as being played or not played; it is the system of interaction between those instruments.

    If the instruments are playing a different composition, then that symphony is over. If the neurons have created a different system of interaction, that mind is over -- which means that person is dead.

    You may well be right. And, really, I can think of numerous other examples where one might argue that Sisko should be court-martialed for murder or other similarly horrific crimes -- poisoning the Maquis planet; tricking the Romulans into joining the Dominion War; all but ordering Worf to kill Chancellor Gowron; etc.

    I am not going to do that. I do not care enough about this debate to take two hours out of my life for the sake of a tangent to a larger TrekBBS debate (a tangent ["If you think Janeway committed murder, then Sisko/Archer must be, too!"] with which I do not necessarily disagree). I am content to assert that I do not hate Janeway or Mulgrew, but that I disagree with and condemn the character's decision for the reasons I have outlined.
     
  16. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Souls don't exist, which is all your arguing for. Tuvix is just an amalgamation of two officers, brain included. They aren't dead, they are just the thing with one head. The brain is just an organ like any other. Not going to waste time watching the show, yet you keep coming back to post your opinions vainly trying to masquerade as facts.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2013
  17. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    "Masquerade." :bolian:
     
  18. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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  19. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I just did this whole analogy about mascara in my head :(
     
  20. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    With sequins and tassels done to old Barbara Streisand songs?