Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Storm Trooper clones come out with a limited personality.

    They do not have the full Jango in them.

    Jango is chained down.

    With this process, unless they modify it a little to churn out a thousand new solders per implementation... You get a fully actualized, intelligent and educated person with (until recently) unique needs wants and drives.
     
  2. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Pardon me; I didn't pause to remember the details of the Riker twin scenario, and so I spoke erroneously.

    Splitting Tuvix into two and then splitting one of the Tuvixes into Tuvok and Neelix would not mean killing one copy of Tuvix while preserving the original Tuvix; it would mean killing the original Tuvix, creating two copies of Tuvix -- Tuvix 2 and Tuvix 3 -- and then killing one copy of Tuvix in order to create Tuvok 2 and Neelix 2.

    So you'd actually be killing two people, not one, in order to create new copies of people who have already died.

    You've missed the point. A commander can order a fellow officer to do their duty to the crew even if the consequence is death; so Troi can order the chief engineer to repair the warp drive even if it means fatal radiation poisoning. We cannot order the chief engineer to simply be killed.

    Don't be absurd. Morality is more important than anything else; the entire point of life is to be moral. And besides, Tuvix was as competent an officer as Tuvok; killing him and replacing him with a copy of Tuvok does not actually benefit ship's efficiency.

    Sure. When it's functioning normally.

    Did you forget that the very next movie affirmed the opposite: That sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of many?

    Yes. Exactly. They were already dead. They cannot be saved, only copied.

    Ergo, it is immoral to kill an innocent man for the sake of someone who is already dead.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The next 4 to 6 months after Tuvix, after they marooned Janeway and Chakotay, where Tuvok was Captain... Tuvok and Neelix can now switch back and forth whenever they care to... Maybe they didn't think of it at the same time, but they had to take turns drunk dialing the other.
     
  4. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    There were some important qualifications to STIII's "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

    First, besides McCoy, everyone else who went with Kirk on the stolen Enterprise was a volunteer. Kirk expressed "The needs of the one..." to Spock, not to postulate a sweeping counter-axiom to Spock's "The needs of the many...", but rather to let Spock know how much he in particular meant to them specifically. It was as if Kirk had said, "But we love you, Spock."

    Second, neither Kirk nor Spock demanded that anyone die. Kirk intended that everyone live, in fact. Additionally, it was fortuitous for both Saavik and Spock that they even came at all.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Had you ever noticed how similar Menagerie was?

    Spock stole the ship to save his friend.
     
  6. Lee Enfield

    Lee Enfield Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    ^^ okay, I see. But it's still the old moral weighting.

    Generally a good idea...

    ... ^^ perhaps that's why it's not a good idea to do the study, after all. The Genesis-Incident shows what Federation would do with a planet like this : they'd quarantine it. :cool:
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The argument is that in the face of death and enslavement that the Federation would sell out their principles.
     
  8. SiddFinch1

    SiddFinch1 Captain Captain

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    A comparison can be made to time travel...when McCoy disappears into the Guardian and kirk and company realize the enterprise is gone they go back to fix it. Now the solution is to let Edith die. But billions of others are changed. When 1st timeline goes away billions die replaced by others with anow equal right to live..ie tuvix. Kirk and Spock erase all of timeline 2 to restore 1. Now in this case it was easier because the Nazis won in Timeline2. But what about the reverse? If you are in a bad timeliness made better would you erase the better one to go back to the.1st? Killing Tuvix is like erasing a timeline2 to restore timeline1 thus killing some to be replaced with others
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's how you define bad.

    Spock thought it as bad because man never invented warp drive, which is ridiculous, the Nazi's would have had a man on the moon by 1952. Maybe the reason that man never made it out into space in that timeline is that the Aryan Nation in charge was just wonderfully content with the paradise they had created after removing all the unwanted elements form the gene pool.

    It seems ridiculous, but Nazi's don't know that they're evil, so they're capable of happiness and pride.
     
  10. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Um, no.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They'd probably know now, hindsight, retrospect, but in the 1930's even the Nazi's throwing people into ovens thought that they were righteous super heroes working for the smartest most honourable man in the universe.

    I know he's a fictional character, but do you really think that Colonel Klink was such a bad guy? Was he magically ignorant, or in on the genocide?
     
  12. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    What can I say but that Hogan's Heroes was a comedy, dude. Oh, and that Sergeant Schultz was funnier. Cuddlier.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Some were complicit, most were ignorant.

    What was happening was top secret.
     
  14. Lee Enfield

    Lee Enfield Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yes, but it fails in the case of the clones. Starfleet (et al.) defeated the Dominion, without even thinking about a clone army.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No. Starfleet Lost the war.

    The Dominion surrendered anyway.
     
  16. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Clone army? What the hell is this, Star Wars?! :lol:
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's really no different much from the spacial scission that created two Voyagers a few weeks earlier.

    If Janeway had any sense she would have got a massive stockpile of antimatter secreted nearby, and then spent a month going back and forth through the scission until there were thousands of Voyagers and they didn't have to be afraid when they inevitably breached Borg Space.
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I could actually see Janeway going for that.
     
  19. scotpens

    scotpens Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In the timeline in which Edith Keeler doesn't die in 1930, we only know that the Enterprise (and, by implication, Starfleet) doesn't exist. There's nothing to suggest that man never made it into space or that warp drive was never invented. A Nazi-ruled 23rd-century Earth could well be the seat of an interstellar Empire.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes sir, her army or evil.