Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Like I said, the Borg are always a threat. The Collective's entire existence is driven by the threat to assimilate others. It cannot, by definition, be permitted to exist. That's the difference.
     
  2. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But what about the baby borgs?
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The collective has been in existence for over 900 years.

    They don't expand like a virus.

    There's thought and contemplation to their method.

    The Borg invite cultures to sign up who are worthy.

    Win/win.

    They don't want everyone.

    If they took everyone, it would be serious diminishing returns for the Borg drafting endless reams of losers and for the new Borg Pledges too who are all signing up to a crappier and still yet crappier definition of the collective for every Pakled wannabe tosser they feel compelled to induct.

    Lose/lose.

    More importantly.

    The Borg assimilate cultures, not individuals.

    The Borg would have ignored Voyager completely if Janeway hadn't been such an adversarial and aggressive prick.

    Do you want to know why the Borg have not really overcome the universe?

    Nothing out there is still truly that startlingly unique.

    All these new worlds with new species with the same old technology.

    The Borg are not redundant.

    It's an inversely proportionate relationship.

    For every species they assimilate there's so many more nearly identical races out there which they now don't have to bother with who get a free pass.
     
  4. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    The problem with the Borg is they're like America. If they decide you can be useful to them, they will do everything in their power to get you under their control. There was an interview with one of the writers long ago, where one of the initial ideas for the Borg was as a metaphor for Americans, the ultimate consumers.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Was that later on, or back from fist principles when they were still insects?
     
  6. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    It was probably around the time of BOBW, as prior to that the Borg were only interested in technology, not assimilating populations.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You're not counting the Neutral Zone?

    The Assimilation Cube did not excrete humans and Romulans after lunching on all those outposts.

    It's almost like they didn't decide to start assimilating people until they decided if the tech was any good.
     
  8. Captain Atkin

    Captain Atkin Captain Captain

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    I'm prety sure they would have assimilated Voyager the first chance they got. It was a Starfleet vessel with advanced technologies. The crew would not have been seen as individuals, but as "Starfleet" culture.
     
  9. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I don't have whatever magazine it was anymore, I just remember them making the Borg=Americans comparison.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry.

    I was asking which episode you consider to be the first Borg Episode?

    The Neutral Zone or Q Who?

    Atkin, the Borg has assimilated hundreds of Starfleet vessels, and dozens of neutral Zone outposts, & they had downloaded detailed databases and copied the minds and souls of MANY Starfleet Captains.

    Been there, done that.

    One person is not a civilization, and neither is one Starship.

    Do you remember what Janeway's plan was before she teamed up with Borg to stop 8472?

    To slink through Borg Space for 10 YEARS and hope that the Collective didn't notice her.

    Either I'm right, and slinking is a possibility or Janeway was in some serious denial about how the next decade of her life wasn't going to be spent mostly as a Borg Drone.

    The Borg let armed commandos wander through their ships who are up to nary no good.

    Have you every tried to pick a fight with a hippy?

    Too stoned to give a crap?
     
  11. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I think they were still trying to figure out who or what the Borg were by the time of "The Neutral Zone". Apparently the little animated creatures we saw with Remmick were supposed to become the Borg, but the technical difficulties were enough they were turned into humanoids. The scooped out outposts were written while the insectoids were still around.

    So I'll have to consider "Q Who" the first Borg episode, as it was the first to mention them by name, but referenced the destroyed outposts retroactively making it become Borg continuity.

    Of course if we figure in ENT's "Regeneration", then that might be considered the first Borg episode.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Those Drones were from the movie First Contact. :)
     
  13. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I know they were from First Contact, but due to the time travel aspect, "Regeneration" is chronologically their first in-universe appearance though they remain unidentified.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Man Archer's record keeping sucks.

    Didn't document the Ferengi.
    Didn't document the Borg.
    Didn't document the Romulans.

    :p
     
  15. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    They don't assimilate everything, only those of interest to them. Lions are always a threat, too, we don't exterminate them. That is not the point, though. Why are the Borg intrinsically less deserving of survival than Tuvix? Why is separating Seven from the Borg Collective OK, but getting Neelix and Tuvok out of theirs not OK?
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Lions can exist without being a threat. If a lion is left in its natural habitat, it won't harm humans. The Borg are different. The Borg are incapable of being anything other than a threat. They are, in the most literal sense, incapable of DOING anything other than assimilating, stealing and destroying.

    Threats must be destroyed. A captain has the near-absolute right to neutralize a threat to ship and crew. If this can be done like it was with Seven and Hugh - separating them from the Collective without killing them - then fine. But when confronted by an entire Cube, the alternative is obvious: destroy it by any means necessary. None of this applies to Tuvix, because he could have existed just fine as a normal crewmember without ever being a threat to anyone.
     
  17. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    They are not a threat to everything. The Kazon were explicitly stated as not worthy of assimilation. Guy Gardner made a very reasonable case for the Borg to not assimilate everything, which would easily explain why the Federation hasn't been assimilated, or why Janeway's lone ship may well not have been, they are not interesting enough. That still doesn't address the question of why the Borg are intrinsically deserving extinction. Why is it Ok, even laudable, to separate Seven, but not Neelix and Tuvok?
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or other reasons like than the federation isn't advanced enough just yet, or the Borg don't want to invest a lot of resources taking and holding territory on the other side of the galaxy just yet and figure they'll get their eventually any way.

    Probably becuase they were busy at the time and afterwards the queen was just being nice to Seven

    The whole attempting to assimilate the federation, just becuase they aren't coming in force doesn't mean they aren't trying.

    1) Because otherwise they would have been assimilated, 2) They weren't going to let themselves be assimilated just to give her to the nearest Borg ship, 3) Janeway did say if she wanted to go back to the Borg after trying the individuality thing she would let her, its just that the two times she tried she was being called by her parent's wrecked ship and had kidnapped Tuvok who probably didn't want to be a Borg and was pretty much forced into doing it practically by the Borg Queen holding a gun to Voyager's crew's heads.

    Simple Neelix and Tuvok had pretty much ceased to exist at that point and as such were pretty dead at the time.
     
  19. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I don't remember if it was specifically stated in the episode, but I got the impression that the longer Tuvok and Neelix were existing as Tuvix, the odds became less likely they could be recovered. Sort of like the window of opportunity to reverse the procedure was closing.
     
  20. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If they had ceased to exist they would not have been so easily and instantly recovered. Took what, 15 seconds?