Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, Brit, I'm looking at the episode as an episode of science fiction in which the science is medicine. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but it seems to be an area where I have more professional experience than you do--and I'm simply basing that judgement on your responses. From those responses, I've gathered that you do not have a clear understanding of medical ethics, the Hippocratic oath or the science that was at the basis of the episode. That is not a judgement against you, that is simply an observation.

    Contrary to your assertion, the morals of this episode can very easily be argued based on the story as given and StarTrek canon. It does not have to be emotional. Indeed, the folks who made it emotional were those arguing that anyone would kill to save a loved one.

    And, no, I'm actually not arguing that everyone think as I do. You are.

    I believe a number of pages back it was JanewayRulz who noted Kathryn's difficulty with the decision and how Kate acted that scene to show it. She thought Kathryn did the right thing. I thought her argument was sound and said so.

    It's also what I liked about the episode: Kate acted the hell out of it without chewing the scenery. She was at her best conveying Janeway's discomfort with the situation.
     
  2. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In the episode, it was explained that the transporter facilitated a biological process.

     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Voyager's often guilty of taking a scientific term, and subbing it for the word magic in plots. :p
     
  4. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Didn't I already cover the legal precident regarding proving sentience? From TNG's "Measure of a Man"

    "It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosphers. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those. I've got to make a ruling - to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

    The relevant is in bold.
     
  5. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Louvois is a trained JAG and Janeway does whatever hell she wants without regards to any laws.

    What really bothered me is that Janeway never gave the Doctor more time to find a way to keep Tuvix while bringing back Neelix and Tuvok. What was with the rush? Don't they owe him that before condemning him to death?
     
  6. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    No, delete the transporter error.
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's really ironic that in a similar situation... where the Viidians stole Neelix's lungs and condemned him to death... Janeway refused to kill the person to take them back, citing that humanity was more evolved than that.

    Maybe the Viidians just weren't Federation property. :p
     
  8. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In Stargate everyone was very disturbed that their clones were still out there. Picard seemed to veer between conflicted responsibility and revulsion towards his clone. The Rikers as I recall were antagonistic right off the bat. I would imagine having yourself blended with someone else might be even worse.
     
  9. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I still say it was the orchids' fault. Yet everyone in the show seems to ignore them. Tuvix isn't just a Vulcaxian, he's also a plant.
     
  10. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Why should Seven be removed from the Collective? Like Tuvix, the Borg are a gestalt of the former individuals. Removing parts of the whole is an assault on the Borg. They are one, and The rights of the Collective should be respected.
     
  11. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    A weed to be mulched.
     
  12. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I still don't get why they don't see the orchid as the greatest agent for transporter development ever. Imagine if you took something that's very hard to obtain and transported it and the orchid with a tribble.. suddenly you have more of the stuff than you know what to do with. And food! At the very least you could infuse vodka in moments rather than months or however long it takes to stick vanilla or whatever in it.

    I'd be saying, "transport everything I'm to eat with a this fresh chillie, I'll let you know if I ever grow tired of it!"

    It has so many applications.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Eh, in Up the Long Ladder, Riker just flippin phasered the clones they made of him and Pulaski. That was murder by all accounts as well.
     
  14. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Imagine Janeway and Seven going through. Is the quadrant ready for that?
     
  15. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    In Riker's defense, he saved his duplicate from death. I thought it was interesting how TNG handled the transporter duplicate storyline, with both being clones of the original.

    I hated how DS9 made Thomas Riker the bad guy and concluded his storyline. I like to pretend his story actually ended in TNG, and that Thomas is still out there in Starfleet.
     
  16. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There's a minor difference between Tuvix being the result(not the cause) of an accident and the Borg enslaving everyone they can into their hive mind.
     
  17. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wish they had airlocked W. Riker and left us with T. Riker and he had gone secretly rogue on TNG for several seasons.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Remember in up the long Ladder when Riker killed his clone because "The universe is only big enough for one Will Riker!"?
     
  19. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    So then, the Collective's rights as a sentient entity deserve no respect. Why should an accident allow Tuvix any rights as an individual that the Borg shouldn't have?
     
  20. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg queen was certainly pissed off at her precious 7's removal like a molar from the collective.