Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    To be more precise, they are ex-parrots.
     
  2. Defiant Obrien

    Defiant Obrien Lieutenant

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    There was nothing artificial about TPols mammarys.. I know from experience...
     
  3. Defiant Obrien

    Defiant Obrien Lieutenant

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    Thats another good point. Now that i think about it, this episode really bothers me. The writers really should have saved this one for a time when they wanted to "write neelix off the show" rather than a filler/fluffer episode since it really just further shows her double standards and inept leadership
     
  4. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    ^Non sequitur. That was a different debate with someone else. Unconscious people are transported all the time, and Picard was actually transported while dead then revived in sickbay. Continuity of consciousness doesn't seem to have any impact.

    It's like you haven't seen the episode. Also, you're confusing me with someone else.

    Far from giving up instantly, reversing the accident is the B plot for the rest of the episode. Seriously, you need to remember the episode if you're going to debate it. If you think they stopped trying to save Tuvok and Neelix after Tuvix materialized, then you've forgotten a large chunk of the plot. Here's a refresher: http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/220.htm

    Janeway's senior staff have established themselves, to the viewer, as honest and competent. We're meant to take what they say as fact. If you want to disregard the dialog of the characters and the development of those characters over the series, I suppose I should give you kudos for creativity. But I can't debate the alternative characters and hidden motivations you've crafted for yourself. Aside from Neelix, it would be completely out of character for Janeway's staff to bluster their way through a problem to create false hope.

    And it turned out that Janeway's staff were correct. The accident was indeed reversible, like so many other Trek transporter accidents.
     
  5. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    Or they could have just assumed his lungs were now infected with the phage and unsuitable for transplant.

    It bugged me that Janeway didn't take at least one of the lungs back. She let the Vidiians ride off into the sunset after a preachy lecture, as if that somehow settled things. But this was Season 1, I suppose the writers were still finding their feet. Still, it was an unsatisfying episode for me.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    if she wanted some lungs back, did it really matter which Vidiian she took them from?

    If the Phage could jump species, no one would have been safe.

    If an example had been made, a mass execution, maybe Durst and B'Elanna wouldn't have been murdered a couple weeks later.

    Actually, considering their problems with the Kazon, why not get those two together? Trick the Vidians into harvesting from the Kazon in a less than a cold war under the radar sly sort of way to start a full scale hot war?

    That's totally judo, hardly Starfleet but very smart.
     
  7. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    Then you don't know many parents.
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It really depends on the age of the child.

    Between the ages of 7 and 19, more parents couldn't give a shit.
     
  9. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    I'm all for slaughter, but if that had happened we'd have been deprived of one of the greatest love stories in Trek... the touching tale of an alien Romeo who'd rip off his own face and replace it with that of his beloved's friend's corpse. It's so rare to find a man who'll go the extra mile to make a girl feel comfortable.
     
  10. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    GPWM
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvok ripped off Neelix's face, gluing it over the top of his own, so that he could sleep with Kes.

    He failed.

    But it's still an equal sentiment.
     
  12. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    Quite true. It looks like he used a few strips of brown packing tape to hang the face from his forehead. I can't decide if that's a weird prosthetic, bad make up or bad lighting.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Vulcan hair follicles seem to be deathly allergic to Tallaxian hormones.
     
  14. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If you're talking about tapestry no he wasn't he died on the table after they beamed him up.

    I know which is why I know it also has nothing to do with the nonsense you were going on about.

    I remember the plot, I also rememebr how transporter accidents work unlike you.
     
  15. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    No, I'm thinking about Who Watches The Watchers. The same thing happens to Harry Kim and an alien in Emanations. They were all dead, beamed, and revived. If you were trying to make the argument that people must retain consciousness during beaming, nope, sorry, not so much.

    Uhhh... I'm not the one who thought the crew stopped trying to save Tuvok and Neelix the moment Tuvix appeared. That would be you. And it's plainly wrong. I'm also not the one disregarding dialogue, established character traits and precedent in favor of... personal fanfic? Spontaneous inspirations? Disjointed guess work? I'm not sure what to call it.

    Apparently not, as you seem to believe transporter accidents are irreversible by default.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
  16. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay let me be clear here I was responding to the whole people who transport are in stasis nonsense.

    I am also saying that most of the transporter accidents shown on screen end after the rematerialization process has ended or they totally lose the signal which doesn't have shit to do with Tuvix after rematerialization process has completed. They are not dealing with a transporter malfunction they are dealing with reversing the aftermath, the accident is done, finished, completed. They are trying to reverse what the accident left them with.

    And the characters did not know that Tuvix could be re-separated hence why they were trying to figure out if and how they could do that's why they kept doing experiment after experiment instead of just sticking Tuvix back into the transporter and getting Tuvok and Neelix back. Hell thats why Janeway used IF when asking Tuvix about separating him just after the accident.
     
  17. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    Anyone in mid-transport fits your definition stasis - they're buffered and they have yet to rematerialize. These are all just fanciful sci-fi elements, but make up your mind about what you think they are.

    So maybe we were watching the same episode after all. I agree there was doubt and hard work, but... so what? I'd say it supports my point that transporter accident victims aren't automatically presumed dead.

    As for when the ordeal ends, that comes either with a clear fatality (a corpse, lost signal, etc.) or when the reset button has firmly been pressed. The rematerialization of anything other than the original people hasn't signaled a closure, at least not that I can recall.
     
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think it should be noted that the transporter mishaps we've seen in Trek have probably tended to be exceptions rather than rules and probably tend to end better than typical transporter accidents given the confines of our perspective (i.e. they're not going to do an episode where a primary character dies in a transporter accident).
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The 29th century integration process drove Captain Braxton insane.

    In Relativity, Janeway should have been compelled to separate the crazy Grandpa in Future's End from the hot guy at the very end who saved them, because the combined creature before them was poisonous and out to get her who deserved to live far less than the two men who helped her out in a time of bother.
     
  20. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    You are confusing the status of being conscious (i.e., being awake) with the status of possessing consciousness (i.e., having a mind).

    I would draw a distinction between clinical death and information-theoretic death. A person might be clinically dead, yet the information that comprises their personality still present in the brain and capable of re-activation if the clinical death (cardiac arrest, etc.) is reversed.

    Tuvok and Neelix, I would argue, underwent information-theoretic death. The information that comprised their minds was disrupted; the systems which are their minds were terminated. A new system comprised of corrupted copies of that information was created -- Tuvix, and then Tuvok 2.0 and Neelix 2.0. But none of these three beings were the same information systems as the original Tuvok and Neelix.