Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    And Janeway's wrong there. Life isn't a numbers game.
     
  2. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    Last time I checked, being a smarmy, irritating pit was not a crime mandating a death sentence.
     
  3. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Location:
    the Frozen Wastes
    It is when it's a television show.
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    Well it's a losing argument to try and persuade the Janeway camp about her complete and utter lack of morals in this episode. It's a good thing the replicators never broke down. Janeway might decide to play the numbers by cannibalizing a gold shirt for the greater good. Same logic she's applying to the Tuvix situation. Kill one person for the benefit of more.
     
  5. BruntFCA

    BruntFCA Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    A Mile High
    I always try to see situations from different prospectives and understand other peoples POV whether I agree with them or not but I've never understood the people that defend Janeway here, SHE F'N MURDERED A DUDE!!!! No matter how hard you try to twist the situation around it will never ever change the fact that she killed an innocent man. It really boggles my mind that some people actually think Janeway made the right decision.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  6. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Location:
    the Frozen Wastes
    Of course she made the right decision. The other two were on contract for the whole season.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    I agree with you.

    The needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the few.

    But isn't that sorta how we determine elections?

    There is a fictional US President from a (nonsuperhero) comic book called Transmetropolitan which is all about a reporter identical to Hunter S Thompson (Who wrote Fear and Loathing in las Vegas) but in the Future... And in one of the early issues the President referred only to as "The beast" says this through a mist of scotch "Do you know what my job is? Do you know what my fucking job is, you pissant? My job is to make sure that 51 percent of the population fed, clothed and happy, and the other 49 percent can go fuck themselves."

    Holy shit.

    Isn't that what Rom Miteny got caught on tape saying?

    Shhhhhhiiit.

    Numbers is democracy.

    Starfleet isn't about Democracy.

    Captains prerogative.

    Different Captains make different decisions.

    Most would lose their ship for taking either side on this issue.

    But Janeway did not have to worry about consequences.

    Would she had made the same decision in the heart of the Federation?

    Probably not.
     
  8. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
    there was no "right" decision here. Tuvix, through no fault of his own, was denying Tuvok and Neelix there right to life, but Tuvix had his right to be there as well. Many "dilemmas" in Trek are fake and poorly handled(see "dear doctor"), but this was not one of them. They created a situation where there really was no right answer.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    They would have been paid if they were on set or not?

    Wait, do they have to be on screen for at least one second?

    But if they had gotten written out of the series, and still been paid for all the episodes they were not in but contractually obligated to receive payment for... That would tally as a win?

    Maybe not because Tuvix was near the end of the season, but if it was episode 4, those two would have done their happy dance.
     
  10. Ryva Brall

    Ryva Brall Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Location:
    Empok Nor
    I'm afraid I'm with teya, R. Star, and BruntFCA on this one. Janeway forced someone to kill himself. Against his will. It was for the good of the ship, but it was still murder. I like Janeway, but this decision has always, always disturbed me.

    And I don't think the Doctor should be attacked for what he said. The fact that it was his programming that decided it was wrong is irrelevant. If he had been a flesh-and-blood physician, his decision would have been the same. Doctors don't kill people against their will.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Three weeks earlier Janeway arranged for the death of her entire crew including Neelix and Tuvok, and then got beaver-damned when her damn yummy duplicate got to be martyred instead.

    Maybe she was reticent about that?

    That sounds like Kathryn(s) murdered them twice already, if one set of Tuvix components more so unsuccessfully than the other.

    Not a good month for these two.

    Meanwhile NEXT WEEK!

    Next fucking week!

    Do you know what happens next week?

    If Tuvix could have just kept some clever lawyering bullshit running Janeway in circles for one more frakking week. Not very long in the complete scheme of things... Hell even Q got a couple days for a trial before he was allowed to commit suicide.

    One more week.

    That's all he needed.

    One week.

    In one more week Janeway and Chakotay would have gotten horrible bugbites and gone into a terrible coma and then been marooned, never to set foot on Voyager ever again.

    Resofuckinglutions.

    If Tuvix could have stayed Janeways hand for one more week.

    Janeway and Chakotay would have been gone, and this composite man would have been the Captain.

    Captain Tuvix.

    No one has ever considered this?

    On fricking week on a stick.

    Shit.

    CAPTAIN TUVIX!

    Tuvok risked certain death attacking a Vidiaan caravan to find a cure for his beloved (like a daughter) Kathryn... Tuvix would have left her to rot and waste time away frakking the Indian till she's grey and buried.

    One week.

    Shit.

    Of course, then you have to wonder if Captain Tuvix would have gotten his ass kicked by Basics?
     
  12. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Location:
    Texas
    Of course it is, but that still doesn't make her decision wrong, when in fact it was the only decision she could have made.

    You know the funny part, you guys that don't understand how we can believe that Janeway was right, should understand that we don't see why you want to heap so much hate on her in the first place. And that is a prejudiced position no matter which side you are on.

    The judgment of Janeway's action here depends entirely on a gut reaction. It is a moral dilemma, there is no right answer for everyone and everyone's opinion is completely based in the individual's prejudice. You can tell the pro-choice from the anti-choice here, you can tell the pro feminists from the anti feminist. It all colors the individual's opinion. And no one will ever agree.

    IMHO, every thread that starts with the word Tuvix or Equinox, should be locked, no good comes from them.
     
  13. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    It was murder because ins(J)aneway ordered to put an innocent man to dead.
    And in my opinion it doesnd't matter if it is to save 1 man or 20, Janeway forced Tuvix against his will.
     
  14. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    No, Brit. My opinion on this does not come from a hatred for Janeway, nor does my opinion make me anti-choice nor anti-feminist.

    And that's gotta be 3 of the most ridiculous assertions I've ever seen made regarding this episode.

    My opinion on this comes from 35 years in medicine. The doctor was right. We don't kill one person to save another.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    It wasn't for the good of the ship. The ship would have been fine with either decision. Janeway was even siding with Tuvix, until a tearful Kes begged to have her Neelix back who she loved more than any other... Even though she's 3 months (12 episodes) away from dumping him. Please murder creepy Tuvix who wants to have sex with me so that I can have sex with Neelix for three months and then forget that I care about him in the slightest.

    If this "merge" happened after their breakup, Kes would not have been so impassioned for the return of Neelix, and Tuvix would have retained life on the ship.

    But some of what I just said is based on a now spurious belief I once had that Neelix and Kes were boffing. Since I found out that they have separate rooms, on different decks of the ship I agreed with the nice on the inside people here, that Kes and Neelix had most probably never done it.

    Factor this.

    Neelix played it PG.

    Light petting.

    That's it.

    Tuvix wanted to bang her hard into next week with his hybrid dong and Vulcan superstrength.

    Tuvix was sex mad.

    Neelix was letting Kes set the timetable (Wait till I'm three years old please.) and he was mostly nonexpressive about he obvious discontent concerning his throbbing blueballs.

    Adding Neelix to the curry cracked the terse suppression Tuvok had on wanting to tap Kes.

    Tuvok was an old man with old man needs that he passed on to Tuvix. He was not a child who would settle for a hug and a peck on the cheek if he was lucky. He'd killed people that got inbetween him and sex before, or Tuvok'd been bloody lucky he hadn't had to pull someone's spine out after going through pon far at least 12 times.

    This is the sexual furiosity little Kes was running full tilt away from and used as the grease to leverage Tuvix's execution with Janeway.

    She cried wolf.

    Janeway believed her.

    When a telemarketer rings you up during dinner time and they're reading badly from a script asking for the house holder or mispronouncing your name unimaginably terribly, how seriously do you take them?

    They're robots.

    Same difference.
     
  16. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    Exactly.

    Both Janeway & Chakotay commented on how Tuvix was actually more than the sum of his parts.

    It was Kes's plea that influenced Janeway. And that's simply bullshit for a Starfleet captain.
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    Typical... if you're against the Janeway's decision that episode you're anti-feminist. There's a completely rational argument. As if Janeway's gender had anything to do with it.
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    I neither like nor hate Janeway but my position on her decision regarding Tuvix has changed over the years.

    Did she murder Tuvix? Of course she did. There is no other way to interpret her decision and there is no way she would have been allowed to make the same decision if she had been in or near Federation space. If she had, she would have been spending a real long time in a penal colony.

    But out on the frontier and out of contact with Starfleet, she has a duty to the other 140-plus people under her command to do her job to the best of her ability. In order to do that, she needs the people she trusts and that is Tuvok and to a lesser degree Neelix.

    If she loses a crewman or two to rescue someone important to the operation of Voyager, does that also constitute murder? When Spock and good-Kirk conspired to force evil Kirk onto the transporter pad against his will to cure good-Kirk's sudden inability to lead, does that constitute murder? When Troi orders holo-Geordi into the fire at the expense of his life in order to save others, does that also constitute murder in real world conditions?
     
  19. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
    I'd agree with that argument if it wasn't that she said exactly the opposite thing in her log. She found Tuvix to be a wise counselor who used humor to get his point across. We saw that Tuvix used intuition to solve a problem that would have stymied Tuvok.

    Tuvix had proven himself as an officer.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    It's been a number of years since I've seen Tuvix. When I have some free-time I'll have to revisit it and see if my impressions change. :techman: