Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Doctor wanted to crack One's skull open like an egg to get his mobile emitter back.

    That kids life was massively less important than the Doctors freedom from sickbay "momentarily".

    You all keep going on about the sanctity of life.

    If Tuvix had erased the doctor's program, he would have been fine and the murderous procedure that was going to kill him would be lost to Janeway along side her incredibly valuable EMH.

    Would Tuvix have been put trial for murder of a hologram, or court martial for sabotage?

    The didn't cut his security privileges, and look how easily the Doctor MURDERED the EMH from Equinox.

    It would have been a piece of piss.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  2. Ryva Brall

    Ryva Brall Commander Red Shirt

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    Uhhhh... What?
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    (Sorry, should have said Tuvix.)

    No Doctor means no cure.

    The Doctor is arguably the finest scientific mind in the Federation.

    If you erase the procedure from his database. Or roll his personality back to a starting character, the "cure" is going to be lost and given time a much less proficient version of Doctor might need 60 days instead of 30 days to redo the the experiment and figure out how to separate Tuvix.

    However if the Doctor gets too close to figuring out how to kill Tuvix again, Tuvix is either going to roll hm back again or stop fucking about and out right kill him, withwashing the medical database into a total blank slate.

    "It was him or me."

    And when "him" is a hologram it's really not any sort of decision at all.
     
  4. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    Tuvix was asking for it if you ask me. A man with all the cool logic of Tuvok combined with the indisputable culinary skillz of Neelix was just too awesome to live.If the Borg had known about him they'd have made a bee-line for Voyager. That kind of awesomeness could only have enriched the Collective. Or at the very least improved their dinner parties.
     
  5. Ryva Brall

    Ryva Brall Commander Red Shirt

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    Curses! Too Awesome to Live Syndrome claims another innocent victim!
     
  6. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    This argument is too intense for me. :ack:
    No jokes allowed apparently.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Plenty of jokes.

    Seven had thousands of enslaved hamsters in her brain driving that wheel she thinks of as her very own intellect and not a sweatshop staffed by slaves.

    Every single one of those personality/lives should have been removed from Seven and given their own boy, whether it was holographic or they built a lot of tailored clones.

    Of course, after that, what husk would be left over to call herself Anika Hansen?
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Damn, someone just won this thread.
     
  9. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Ah, yes -- when we want to violate someone else's rights, we must de-humanize them. Make them the "Other." Make them into something "less" than us, deny their personhood.

    :rolleyes:

    Tuvix was a real person. He had his own personality. His own thoughts, his own feelings, his own goals, his own agency. He was a unique and distinct person from Tuvok and Neelix.

    ETA:

    I for one question whether or not the Tuvok and Neelix who were brought back out of Tuvix were actually the same beings as the originals. I think it's more accurate to call them identical copies.

    The systems. The organized patterns of neurological interactions which constitute a unique consciousness.

    Think of it this way:

    An orchestra is a collection of instruments. Different instruments can interact in different ways to play completely different performances of musical compositions. The same instruments could play Beethoven one hour, and Elton John the next.

    So it is with consciousness. A person's consciousness is not merely their body, nor is it merely the informational components. A person's consciousness is the unique and active system created by the sum of those components' interactions. It, like a performance of a musical composition, exists for a limited period of time, and ceases to exist when those instruments cease interacting. A person's consciousness is an interacting pattern.

    What we see with Tuvok and Neelix is, in essence, two orchestras -- each playing their own performances of their own compositions -- coming together, ending their respective performances, and then starting a new performance of a new composition that incorporates pieces of the first two. But just as a performance of a mash-up is a different performance of a composition than the originals it was created from, Tuvix was a different person from the originals it was created from. The performances of the "Tuvok composition" and the "Neelix composition" had ended, and a new performance called "Tuvix" had begun. And then that new performance was ended, and a new performance of the first two compositions began. But the Tuvok and the Neelix who emerged were not the same beings who had entered, just as two performances of the same composition remain separate performances.

    So the episode "Tuvix" in essence was the story of five people -- of the deaths of Tuvok 1.0 and Neelix 1.0, of the birth and death of Tuvix, and of the births of Tuvok 2.0 and Neelix 2.0.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  10. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    You can say the same thing about every character that ever went through the transporter. Since the characters don't bother wondering whether they're "original" or "copies" after beaming around daily, then we should assume the question isn't meaningful to them. Why would it be different for Neelix and Tuvok after emerging from Tuvix?
     
  11. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That was pretty much debunked by Realm of Terror when Barclay is shown being transported from a point of view with uninterrupted consciousness. Don't ask me how that works... but hey.
     
  12. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, Janeway is a murderer.

    A few years later in "Equinox", she even locked a fellow Starfleet officer in a room that was able to be filled with murderous aliens.
     
  13. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    No, there's uninterrupted continuity of consciousness when the transporter works normally. Tuvok and Neelix clearly did not have an uninterrupted continuity of consciousness; their consciousnesses ceased to exist and Tuvix's consciousness developed.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A tenth of 3 and a half percent of biomatter doesn't trade back which alters their biochemistry which alters their brain chemistry which alters their personalities which means that they are significantly different individuals than they used to be a month earlier.
     
  15. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    :rolleyes: Indeed.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Personshood.
     
  17. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Janeway needs her coffee making kitchen rat, Tuvix is just gonna have to go if Voyager is ever gonna get home.
     
  18. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    OK, I just really love this line of argument. And I love it because you're using neurophysiology to argue your case. Seriously, you win the internets tonight. :techman:

    One of the reasons this is one of my favorite episodes in all of StarTrek, is because the science behind the science fiction is medicine. Good, debate-inspiring medical episodes are rare in sci-fi. It's my science. I'm thrilled when they toss me a bone.

    ("Critical Care" was another--a bit ham-fisted, but dealing with the trenches I'm in every day: the politics & the economics of the distribution of medical care. I had to love it).
     
  19. Ryva Brall

    Ryva Brall Commander Red Shirt

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    Well, there you have it. Tuvix's TC was too low.
     
  20. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    :lol:

    Apparently, it was... ;)
     

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