Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Dankokoro, Jan 16, 2013.
And even after.
I can see where any dislike comes from - the character always struck me as smug and condescending. I know that can be explained away by her having the knowledge of a 300 year old symbiote, but still, it irked me. Not to the point of hating the character, but I certainly wasn't displeased to see Jadzia go.
Ezri was a little whiney, but overall, I preferred her to Jadzia.
Are male fans more tolerant of Jadzia than female fans? Do the genders tend to veer in any strong direction in the like/dislike category?
^ It's going to be very hard to say because most of the commenters (those who indicate a gender) have been male. Your sample of female fans is going to be pretty tiny!
And sometimes people have trouble separating a character from an actor. Even an anonymous survey that only asks for gender could be flawed.
Well, didn't take much time. You had such a good start, talking about bad acting, lackluster character arcs, and inconsistent writing... all good, sensible reasons to dislike her character. Turns out it was good ol' misogyny. Too bad.
And yet, you always find the time to say something offensive about her every time she's mentioned. What an unlikely coincidence!
Weren't you guys hating on her because she was "too perfect"? Seems you are pretty inconsistent with your complaining.
Nonono, you have it wrong: women who flirts with men are whores.
Socially maladjusted geeks have troubles discerning between playful teasing as a normal social interaction and actual signals of sexual interest. This is why sometimes they think a woman is interested in them, and when they find out she's not and she was only enjoying some playful social niceties, they become enraged and feel they have been "led" and "wronged". I've found that much (obviously, not all) of the vitriol against Jadzia in fandom stems from apparently still-stinging memories of this kind of encounters.
No, no.. you were right the first time.. it's all that other stuff. My dislike of Jadzia had been well and truly established before that scene.
Forgive me, but I find your choice of word quite telling. People don't go around calling women "whores". Well, non-misogynistic people, at least.
Would you feel comfortable with someone commenting on Sisko's liking of gumbo or jazz as "You. Complete. [Rather-impolite-word-to-describe-black-people]"?
I am hoping Dankokoro's...overstatement is a result of his dislike for the character. Surely most us here don't equate flirting with immorality. Because if so, I must be a total slut.
More or less, yeah.. She's obviously not an actual whore (didn't think i'd have to explain myself on that one).
I did also have a problem with her flirting though, mainly because i didn't actually get the impression she was joking/teasing.. perhaps if was how Farrell delivered the lines (wouldn't be surprised)..
I guess I don't really get how joking about having sex later with a mostly naked guy, while her arm is around him is "harmless flirting".. Especially if he wouldn't know if she was joking or not? (i didn't). I mean, they didn't even know each other.. He's not to know she's "just being Jadzia".
I'm gonna have to watch the scene again.. at the time it was a serious WTF moment..
Oh, I gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood you as saying that they'd be rude or dismissive towards her, something like that.
I was hoping you'd turn up.
I seem to recall she was established as being pretty good friends with him, wasn't she? Could be wrong, though. And of course if he did misunderstand her intentions, it'd be somewhat embarrassing but nothing more than a "oh no, sorry, that was just kidding around earlier."
er, I didn't use the word "whore," I used "inappropriate." Which I think it was. It was a little too suggestive to be the friendly "you're cute" kind of flirting, plus her being so close to marriage makes it a little more disrespectful. Nothing wrong with finding others attractive when you're married, though.
well to be fair, I thought better of that post and deleted it. Oh well, it was still true.
Whoa. What happened to this thread while I was gone?
Okay, I'll concede that Quark and Bashir may not have had "deep" feelings for Jadzia, but they were both clearly infatuated with her, and I always thought that the "constant mind games", as Rush Limborg said, that she played with them were rather distasteful.
But then again, I've personally never thought much of flirting, anyway. I prefer being straight-forward about feelings, and all that teasing and "hard to get" stuff just confuses and irritates me. The curse of being a logical woman in an illogical world, I suppose.
I should just marry a Vulcan.
I always do. Think of this as my Iguana-Signal.
Please, leave it. I do have a healthy sense of irony. Can you say the same? Because your knee-jerk reaction seems to point the other way.
Apparently, I turned up.
As I've said, I've found this is often the origin of many people's dislike of Jadzia.
Man, all this Jadzia hate! I enjoyed the character, and thought she worked great in the show. I agree Farrell wasn't as strong as some of the other actors, but that's highlighted because she was on DS9 - by FAR the best acted show. I thought she did a decent job, and I enjoyed her in episodes like Blood Oath, Trials and Tribble-ations, others.
In terms of being inappropriate with her flirting, I'd say she was no more or less inappropriate than Riker or Bashir or Quark. All those characters would come on to people all the time - though I didn't have a problem with them regarding their flirting. But Quark would even sexually harass people (grabbing them inappropriately, etc.) - that's definitely worse than Jadzia's flirting.
Indeed, Quark and Bashir came on strong to her, always chasing her - in extremely lustful ways (especially Quark). I always thought she was not trying to hurt their feelings by breaking it to them. Further, i don't think she really was any more 'overly friendly' (people think its flirting) with them than she was with Sisko.
I definitely don't think she was playing mind games, though that's just my interpretation and I can definitely see how people might think that. Many times I think she wasn't actually flirting but her whimsical and friendly demeanor caused others to think she was. I think the character tried to lighten others up some times - which I guess rubbed some the wrong way. Also, I think she wasn't arrogant at all.
But hey - that's just me! A few posters did have some reasonable critiques.
It's funny though, I've seen threads on other boards, or even been in conversation with people, where hate starts pouring on a character, like say Bashir or Kira, and I think to myself - am I crazy for liking him/her? Everyone seems to hate this character. But later, in say character polls (the most extensive I ever saw for DS9 had around 180 voters), the characters place fairly well.
Of course, there are characters who seem to be universally loved - Garak, Odo, to a lesser extent Quark - and characters who some love, some hate, to varying degrees, like Jadzia, Bashir, Kira, and even Sisko. Just my personal experience having spent way to much time reading/listening to people talk about DS9 for too many years
As an aside: It was especially funny regarding character hate - but not funny in a good way at the time - with my girlfriend from back in high school, whose entire family and some of her friends enjoyed the show but just hated Bashir - the character who I related to the most! Yeah, me and her didn't work out....
I personally really enjoyed all the characters (the only show I can say that about), except Bareil, who I found odd and spacey, and Shaakar, who I thought they could have done a better job with - though I didn't hate either. Well, there's also Kai Winn - but you're supposed to want to shoot yourself when she talks, so that's different.
Regarding the 'whore' thing, 'flirting' does not make someone 'a whore,' and that word connotes such a value judgement and double standard.
And no I'm not morally superior for saying so (who is in a position to judge that, especially on a message board?), nor am I intellectually lazy - but I do appreciate clever irony.
I agree 90%! (100% sounds better, doesn't it?) I'd just add that regarding Quark, he did truly care about Jadzia - though maybe not romantically -, though he really did lust after her as well of course. Bashir, on the other, while lusting after her and coming on really strong, was also romantically interested.
What's interesting is these are three characters where the actors' faces are heavily obscured.
Good point! Hmm..... I do think Robinson and Auberjonois were the two best actors, no question, and Shimmerman would definitely right after them with a few others.
But yeah, I wonder what role what you mentioned plays in our reception of them.
The 'innocent flirting' while about to get married thing-- I think it's a 50/50 risk on that. Some people get extremely offended by it, others think it's harmless.
It looked like Worf ironically, brushed it all off.
In "Let He Who is Without Sin" she was doing some things with another female that looked very suggestive. It seems like that's just the way the woman was.
Say what you want about Jadzia, she wasn't a boring.
However.....the ass kicking, hang around with Klingons thing-- I think they went too far with all of that.
Jadzia was also one of the sexiest characters on the show when she wanted to be. In "Through the Looking Glass" was a pretty good example.
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