It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Charles Phipps, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    I just did a review here: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2013/06/star-trek-2009-review.html

    My problem isn't Kirk, Spock, the plot, or anything. It was, overall, very much a great ball of fun wrapped in chocolate with huge amounts of fanservice to the series (in its myriad incarnations). Except, one part really rubbed me the wrong way. The scene where Kirk offers Nero and his crew mercy only for Spock to ask him what the hell he was doing.

    Yes, it was funny. Yes, by any cultural standard which believes in the death penalty, Nero deserved to die.

    But that seemed needlessly antagonistic to Trek's philosophy of peace and understanding. It seemed deliberately there to make fun of Roddenberry's attitude towards space combat and battle.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If Nero refuses, do you really have any other choice? Can you afford for him to survive falling through another black hole? Kirk did what had to be done.

    I can't stand the Academy portion of the film, personally.
     
  3. Tosk

    Tosk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How would that happen? This black hole opened right in the middle of the Narada. If they did somehow survive it, I guess we'd find out where all the Vulcans went. ;)
     
  4. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    I don't mind them firing afterward, it was more the way the offer was derided by the movie. As if capturing Nero and his crew was an inherently bad thing.

    I was okay with the Academy stuff, personally, as I think it illustrated Kirk's Devil May Care attitude had some depth to it. He's not just a complete ass, he also has a "never say die" will that makes him a good captain.

    Then again, I think Kirk 'cheating' was kind of ridiculous. It was really-really obvious he did.
     
  5. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The red matter was on destruction mode at that point. Send back in time mode had been disabled.
     
  6. NotLKH

    NotLKH Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    What was the part that rubbed you the wrong way?

    > Kirk offering Nero and his crew mercy ?
    > Spock asking him what the hell he was doing?

    or just including both in the movie, because it seemed needlessly antagonistic to Trek's philosophy of peace and understanding, that it seemed deliberately there to make fun of Roddenberry's attitude ?

    Are you also saying that Nero should not have been afforded the chance to surrender, that he should have been blindly pulverized to a bloody pulp?

    {edit: lots of discussions occured while I was on a conferance call. oh,well}
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know how I'd react if someone who murdered one of my parents and my planet refused an offered act of mercy?

    It might be right along the lines of how Spock felt.
     
  8. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    I thought it showed just how far (temporarily) Spock had "gone human", in the face of his massive losses. It was also a cathartic end that the general audience expected. Not a moment in the finest Trek tradition perhaps, but a reminder that these characters have a lot of personal growth ahead of them before the mature into the TOS characters. If they were supposed to be the same age as in TOS, I would have been a bit bothered.
     
  9. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Doesn't hurt to make fun of GR's ideology sometimes.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Might want to go back and re-watch The Original Series since that is what these films are based on.
     
  11. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    I opened this thread, fully expecting the First post was simply going to add "That it was made"

    As has been stated, Spock was in a severe Emotional state after having lost his mother and his planet to this scum, and they are all indeed a decade younger than their Prime Universe counterparts were when they started their tours together on the Enterprise. So, I'm not bothered at all about the way it played out
     
  12. NotLKH

    NotLKH Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Why should I, since I was just restating what the OP said in a question format?
     
  13. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Norf Remembers Moderator

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    Let's unnecessarily Godwin this bad boy.

    Instead of hiding out in his bunker and eventually taking his own life, Hitler makes a desperate escape attempt and boards a U-Boat bound for Argentina or somewhere else that might offer refuge.

    You're the captain of a British cruiser that sees the fleeing U-Boat and knows Hitler is aboard. If it submerges, it might be destroyed or captured later on by other patrols, but there's also a good chance it could get away, and Hitler can possibly kill more people and spread his evil elsewhere. But you decide to offer terms of surrender first.

    Your first officer surprisingly objects to your decision to offer mercy, contrary to his usual logic and code of ethics in such situations. He's Jewish and he recently witnessed the aftermath of the genocide of his people and the death of his mother in a now liberated concentration camp firsthand. Because of this, he's understandably angry and vengeful, but he's also not willing to even allow the remote possibility of a madman like Hitler escaping while you arrange the surrender or escaping from prison later on when you can finish him now, once and for all, and prevent further loss of life or the spread of his hateful rhetoric.

    Hitler then gets on the radio, talks some trash, and that coupled with your XO's recommendation makes you say "good enough for me" and you blow the sub to bits.

    Now, the XO's situation is roughly analogous to what Spock had just gone through with the destruction of Vulcan and the murder of a huge number of his people. Isn't his reaction completely understandable in that context, his normal feelings about the death penalty and offering terms of surrender notwithstanding? It's not antagonistic to the idea of allowing enemies to surrender in general, it's antagonistic to the idea of allowing this one way over the top evil genocidal bastard to surrender (possibly buying him time to escape through the wormhole).

    Spock even states as much when he says "No captain, not this time" in response to Kirk saying that he offered Nero surrender because he thought that's what Spock would want him to do. So, I don't think the message of Nero's destruction was hostile to the idea of offering surrender to enemies in general. It was just terrible extraordinary circumstances for Spock at the time, so his reaction makes sense in that context.
     
  14. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Kirk had the responsibility and duty to do whatever was necessary to ensure that Nero did not destroy any more Federation planets.

    If Kirk was totally in control of the situation or Nero was totally disarmed then maybe Kirk could afford to be merciful. Nero was insane, he wasn't going to stop.

    I don't know why people think it would be OK to save Nero. It was not. It would be irresponsible.
     
  15. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    I have to agree with the OP. I loved the movie, there's almost nothing else I'd change about it. But that scene... I think it's very Star Trek for Kirk to at least offer Nero the chance to surrender peacefully. It's something Prime Kirk would have done, and to me it's the moment when NuKirk shows how much he's matured since the beginning of the movie.

    But Spock's petulant response, inner turmoil or no inner turmoil, rings untrue to me. It isn't so much that it's "making fun of Roddenberry's philosophy" as it is I'd imagine that Nimoy's Spock (you know, the guy who tried to broker peace with Klingons?) would have been in favor of the proposition. He may not have liked what Nero had done, but he'd put it aside. As Kirk said, that would be the logical thing to do.

    Of course, seeing as Nero immediately threw Kirk's offer back in his face, he was asking for an ass-kicking. :)
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But this Spock really isn't Prime Spock, he's a man who has faced the destruction of his world and literally watched his mother slip away. Plus, the Spock who tried to negotiate peace with the Klingons is nearly fifty-years older.

    So, I can definitely understand this Spock not being inclined to save someone who killed six billion plus beings.
     
  17. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    I'm not disputing that, under the circumstances, we can forgive NSpock for a moment of saying, "**** these guys, **** their ship, and **** their survival/dignity as sentient beings." It's a very human moment and, again, hilarious.

    I also think that NKirk offering him the hand of survival (if followed by arrest) was a little TOO mature for NKirk, given we know he's the most immature man in the Quadrant. So, having Spock rather easily talk him out of it was good.

    It's just I felt the scene was kind of "there" and seemed to be rejoicing in destroying an enemy when Star Trek usually rises above that. It's why I prefer Into Darkness, as Kirk taking Khan prisoner and putting him in cryostasis for the rest of his life works on both a justice level as well as a personal retribution one.

    (Admittedly, Khan's crimes were a far lesser magnitude)
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, we don't know who decided Khan's fate. I'd imagine that decision was likely made at a pay grade far higher than Kirk's.

    And I'm not sure how keeping Khan as a popsicle is justice. That honestly seems a bit cruel to me. :shrug:
     
  19. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    I appreciate the reason for Spock's emotive response. But I also quite like that Kirk threw the offer out there to Nero anyway. At least on Kirk's part, it was definitely a maturing of the character.

    The real bottom line is that it shows Kirk has got real integrity as a Starfleet officer (or should I say he has the potential for real integrity as a Starfleet officer?), but the fact that Nero refuses the offer outright pretty much means Kirk and his crew have got the right to take the battle all the way to the endgame. It's the pivotal moment for Kirk, because Nero's refusal confirms his irrationality, and Kirk realizes once and for all that Nero isn't going to stop no matter what. So the Enterprise will just have to do whatever's necessary.

    As you can tell I actually like the scene a lot, but it might have been better - more subtle? - if Spock had simply raised a very quizzical eyebrow at Kirk's offer, rather than speaking out so openly against it. Admittedly it wasn't a moment that called for a particular subtlety. :lol:
     
  20. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    How do you know it doesn't always do both, depending on how you enter the singularity ?

    To the OP, it doesn't bother me too much. Given the circumstances, I understand Spock's objections.