It's official! Neil Gaiman episode to feature...(spoilers)

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Emh, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Though, the Reconstruction is really, really good. The Telesnaps change so frequently, it is almost easy to forget it's a reconstruction.
     
  2. Redfern

    Redfern Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    Re: New Cybermen Design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I wish I could remember who stated that upon OutPost Gallifrey over 6 years ago. He really deserves credit for changing my perception of that original design.

    But let's remember that despite their superficial similarity, the core motivations for the Borg and the Cybermen are rather different. The Borg thrive for "perfection". But what drives the Cybermen is far more primal, survival. Here's a race of people who effectively d*mned themselves while trying to prevent extinction. Getting metaphysical, you might say they lost their souls in an attempt to save themselves. They're animated corpses that can't comprehend they are, for all practical purposes, already dead. A Borg can be "unplugged" from the Collective and in various circumstances, become an individual again. Various eps of "next Gen'" and "Voyager" have demonstrated this. The success rate in reversing full Cyber-conversion is far, far less. You're just so much walking long-pork.

    Sincerely,

    Bill
     
  3. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    Location:
    Lat: 40.1630936 Lon: -75.1183777
    Re: New Cybermen Design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Did you ever think this was a lame motivation? I thought it was lame ... one of those ridiculous notions introduced by the writing staff on Voyager, it no doubt sounded cool at the time, but it hardly makes sense as a species motivation. At their introduction, they sought unique technology to add to their own enhancement. Later, the focus became "biological and technological distinctiveness". That was a healthy tool-user's interest exaggerated to unhealthy extremes by the Borg Collective. It made them both menacing and logical. But "perfection"? What is that beyond an aesthetic pursuit? Perfection is ultimately a subjective evaluation, unless you're talking about physical quantities (like a perfect vacuum).

    Yes! This sounds very interesting and distinct from the Borg in the sense that the Borg were a viable, poweful, almost instinctive force of nature with nothing short of demigods as natural threats. The Cybermen always used to teeter on the edge of oblivion.

    Yep. They flirted with this in that Torchwood episode. And again with Craig when he proved love conquers all. But I think you're confusing your species-level metaphor with the individual when you suggest each Cyberman is walking dead. As a race, the Cybermen have been clinging to life since their introduction ... beaten down by the universe itself and almost, but not quite, driven to extinction. They're past their expiration date, but hanging around in the fridge of life only through shear luck and unmitigated gall. But each Cyberman is different, and there might be some dramatic gristle to chew if you can fish out some viable morsels from that old bowl of Cyberstew.

    I'm reminded of the final episode of Galactica:1980 when I think I'd love to see an episode where the Doctor encounters a lone Cyberman and tries to rehabilitate him. Her.

    It?
     
  4. Stevil2001

    Stevil2001 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2001
    Location:
    2010
    Re: New Cybermen Design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The Doctor travelled with a Cyberman companion in the DWM comics, though that Cyberman was rehabilitated before the Doctor came along.
     
  5. Redfern

    Redfern Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    I'll concede the point as I have not seen any TorchWood. I knew the series depicted a partially converted Cyber(wo)man, but I didn't know her fate.

    Sincerely,

    Bill
     
  6. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Location:
    The bed of whoever pays for the night.
    Is it on DVD?
     
  7. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Re: New Cybermen Design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Actually I think that might've been introduced in First Contact not on Voyager.
     
  8. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    No, but it is on tape if you can still find it.
     
  9. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    Location:
    Lat: 40.1630936 Lon: -75.1183777
    Re: New Cybermen Design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No, I'm pretty sure it was first expressed in the Voyager episode, "The Omega Directive". Where First Contact stumbled was in the introduction of a Borg Queen to give the drones a dramatic focus and a face. Both were bad ideas that undermined the novelty of the Borg concept.
     
  10. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Don't think so, but, I've transferred mine to DVD. Try the streaming sites like Youtube and Dailymotion. I think one of them has many of the Reconstructions available to watch
     
  11. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    Re: New Cybermen Design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    "We used to be exactly like them. Flawed. Weak. Organic. But we evolved to include the synthetic. Now we use both to attain perfection." -The Borg Queen, First Contact
     
  12. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Location:
    The bed of whoever pays for the night.
    Ah, thanks guys! :)
     
  13. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    Location:
    Lat: 40.1630936 Lon: -75.1183777
    Re: New Cybermen Design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Oh come off it, that was a line with no meat at all relevant to the rest of the movie's story. She could just as easily have used words like destiny, beauty, ascension, or a dozen other nouns that would have made no difference at all to any of the characters or plot in First Contact. Do you honestly think someone was sitting behind that script thinking, "Gee, let's make the Borg motivated by a zealous pursuit of perfection?" And yet that's exactly what came out of "The Omega Directive". That's where the show's writers deluded themselves into thinking that would make a good motivation for the Borg.
     
  14. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Location:
    Behind enemy lines
    But hasn't perfection, or something close to it always been behind the Borg's nature? "The Best of Both Worlds" I always took that episode title to be referring to the mix of natural and artificial (I realise other people have other interpretations)

    What is it in BOBW Locutus says to Worf? "We want to raise the quality of life for all species." And in FC the Borg queen refers to either Data or Picard as "Imperfect."
    The Borg, even in their earliest sightings, were all about harmony, a billion voices singing as one, the hive, symmetry.

    I think it's easy to see some notion of perfection behind that. The only difference Voyager made to that was to suggest the Borg still strove towards some higher level of perfection, before this I think the perception was that they already felt they were perfect.
     
  15. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    Location:
    Lat: 40.1630936 Lon: -75.1183777
    That's pretty well-reasoned, Starkers. I still don't think there was an implicit ideological pursuit of perfection as part of the original Borg concept. Rather, they sought the technology and biological distinctiveness that gave them the greatest advantage. Give me a little time to chew on it and let this topic get back on track.
     
  16. Capn Flukie

    Capn Flukie Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Location:
    Flukie
    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLQNWr-HI2o[/yt]