Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Austin 3:16, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Location:
    Dayglow, New California Republic
    They could, because in 2013 battleships are all museums. ;)
     
  2. Mycroft Maxwell

    Mycroft Maxwell Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee USA
    I think he meant a 2013 destroyer lol
     
  3. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    ^Yeah.
     
  4. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Location:
    Montgomery County, State of Maryland
    Again, we don't know how technology has evolved relative to the evolution of Prime Timeline technology. Abramsverse tech might be radically different from Primeverse tech as a result of exposure to the Narada and the Jellyfish. So this is a question that cannot rationally be answered.

    The Sovereign class may be able to defeat the Galaxy class circa 2364, but I doubt it's so clear-cut when you talk about Galaxy class ships that have undergone Dominion War-era refits. It's likely an even match.

    Again, we don't know how the evolution of weapons tech worked out in the alternate timeline of AGT, so it's not a question we can answer. It's just as plausible to say that in the timeline of AGT, the UFP never developed quantum torpedos and so the Sovereign class would defeat the Galaxy X class.
     
  5. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    Well I agree with most of what Mycroft Maxwell is saying. True, the few hours they've shown of some of the mentioned ships aren't enough to make detailed answers but it's safe to make the educated guess of MM's prediction. The Narada and the Jellyfish were seen but it's not like they scanned the systems, both ships were destroyed. They did to the Vengeance what they did to the JJprise after the Narada blew up the Kelvin, they just made it bigger. Next Gen's tech, after years of wars and discoveries, Wolf 359 Borg upgrades, Dominion war refits, plus Enterprise E's refit at the end of Nemesis after Voyagers return (god mode activated) is going to beat a hundred year old tech that scanned a future mining vessel.
    I agree with you there though in the end I think the Sovereign will get the upper hand.
    Well we did see that Galaxy dreadnought cut through the Klingon dreadnought that was used during the DS9 / Klingon battle, and the Klingon dreadnought took everything DS9 could throw at it.
     
  6. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Location:
    Montgomery County, State of Maryland
    Ah, but the Narada was also disabled after the Kelvin rammed her, and she was surrounded by Starfleet shuttlecraft. It's entirely possible that those shuttles were able to take detailed scans of the Narada's systems and that this information thereby accelerated the Federation's technological development. (Such an acceleration could be especially advanced if the Narada was outfitted, as the comic Countdown establishes, with retrofitted Borg technology.)

    On the other hand, it is just as plausible that no such scans took place and that the Federation of the 2250s Abramsverse is no more technologically advanced than the Federation of the 2250s Primeverse.

    We just don't know.

    The version of the Negh'Var-class ships we saw in the uptime segments of "All Good Things..." were themselves not the same as the versions we saw in "The Way of the Warrior" (set in 2372) -- just as the uptime Galaxy X class is not the same as the downtime Galaxy class we're familiar with. So, again, we can't compare the standard timeline's 2370s Negh'Var to the alternate future's version; we don't know along what lines that alternate future's Klingon Empire and Federation technologies evolved. We just have no standard of comparison.
     
  7. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    The Negh'Vars aren't the same but wouldn't it be safe to say the AGT version was stronger? In AGT, with the Federation and Klingons not on good terms and with the federation sporting ships like that Galaxy X, not to mention AGT was further in the future than the DS9/Klingon battle (set in 2395), it's safe to say the Klingons had plenty of time for advancement.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
  8. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Yes, Yes, YES!!! as comparisons go, this is as good a comparson as we are going to get.
     
  9. Mycroft Maxwell

    Mycroft Maxwell Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee USA
    Finally, A good example of what I was talking about. Remember the USS Defiant (constitution class) was an explorer just like the Uss Enterprise Ncc-1701. And It pwned every warship of the Mirror Universe the century before. Now take into account that the Enterprise-E herself was actually built f or battle, I am sure the Enterprise E would not only beat the Vengence, but do it without taking any damage what so ever.
     
  10. NeedleOfInquiry

    NeedleOfInquiry Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    I seriously doubt that. Again, The Vengeance has 320 isoton torpedoes. And if the phasers are even half as impressive, it's going to scrape some paint off the big E's hull.
     
  11. Mycroft Maxwell

    Mycroft Maxwell Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee USA
    ^Which is more BS specs the producers did to uber their unrealistic crapfest of technology.

    Lets go back and say the NX-04 Discovery had 500, 999 Isoton Photonic Torpedoes. And had quadruple layered ablative hull armor. I can do that, only difference is, i dont work for paramount so it dont get publicized.
     
  12. NeedleOfInquiry

    NeedleOfInquiry Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    It may be B.S, but it's Canon B.S.

    And it's not the same as giving the Nx-04 ablative armor, because the Nx-04 existed in the primeverse BEFORE the incursion. After the JJverse split off from the primeverse, anything is possible.
     
  13. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
    And I doubt that. 100+ years of shield advancements and preparation for the Dominion War should be enough IMO to keep Vengeance at bay.
     
  14. NeedleOfInquiry

    NeedleOfInquiry Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    We can no longer say that the E-E is "100 years more advanced." We have little idea how far technology has come in the JJverse.

    Here's what we do know:

    The Vengeance has superior torpedoes to Voyager, a 24th century vessel

    JJverse ships appear to have some form of transwarp drive, which would explain the new "warp tunnel" effect, and account for the increased speed starfleet vessels now posses

    The Vengeance, presumably, has Transwarp beaming

    The Vengeance can survive, with catastrophic damage, an internal detonation of 72 photon torpedoes

    The Vengeance utilizes pulse phasers, which can "arc" towards it's target, a technology that has yet to be seen in the 24th century IIRC

    Based on feats alone, the Vengeance would seem to have late 24th century equivalent technology. At minimum.
     
  15. Mycroft Maxwell

    Mycroft Maxwell Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee USA
    No, here's what we do know. The writers and producers don't know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to relating technologies. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have a ship more powerful than a LATE 24TH CENTURY WARSHIP. NO WAY IN HELL. It only shows the stupidity and lack of intelligence of the people in charge.

    Lets see people working with that Radio Tube, warehouse sized calculator and reverse engineer a Windows 7 Dell Inspiron 560 and see how long it takes them to reverse engineer it. They wouldn't know where to begin.
     
  16. Captain Jed R.

    Captain Jed R. Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Location:
    Lala Land.
    Whether or not it is can't be determined. It might "canonically" be more powerful if you take whatever numbers the producers come out with but frankly, the Abramsverse has entirely different conventions and "rules" to regular Trek so it's not necessarily helpful to compare.

    I mean, we're talking about a universe where suddenly every ship is huge (and look at comparative size charts for Kelvin compared to 24th Century ships - from Kelvin onwards, everything's huge), where suddenly starships have turrets that fire pulse weapons instead of emitters that fire beams, where a phaser barrage from the Enterprise isn't a beam but a hail of red bolts of energy, where hand phasers shoot rapid fire bolts not beams, where ships can go at ludicrous speeds and suddenly warp speed is a time vortex. The people designing the JJVerse have given it totally different design rules, totally different narrative rules, totally different s-f tech rules. Try to compare one to the other, you might as well say "Star Destroyer vs Enterprise" for all the comparative stuff you can do.

    For my money, no way is 23rd Century - even altered 23rd Century - equal to 24th Century. Totally different scales of tech, far better shields, superior computers, superior speed. If JJVerse still in any way follows the rules of 23rd Century tech, those things should be consistent even if they have updated (and realistically, they didn't update that much - Narada still owned the entire seven ship fleet and battered Enterprise even after the Kelvin scans and reverse-engineering).
     
  17. NeedleOfInquiry

    NeedleOfInquiry Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    You personal feeling regarding the intelligence of the writers, are irrelevant to this discussion. Based on undeniable onscreen evidence, the JJverse has equal or superior technology to the 24th century, in many respects.

    Whether you accept the countdown comics explanation or not, it's clear that the Narada was no ordinary mining ship. Not unless the Romulans were in the habit of building 5 mile long Eldritch Abominations. Therefore, any attempts to use the Narada as a basis for comparison, are fruitless.
     
  18. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Visually speaking, the JJ-verse is more advanced than the similar Prime universe.
    TOS wise, Pine's Kirk is about the age where he would be on the Republic.

    This tells me that Vengeance--and all the rest of the ships are larger and more powerful than they should otherwise be. So I think it would be close, and the Ent-E might have surprises, but I think Vengeance has it beat.
     
  19. Captain Jed R.

    Captain Jed R. Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Location:
    Lala Land.
    We should also consider the effect budget has on all this: the Abramsverse films arguably have a far bigger budget than Trek has had in the past. This makes things look more expensive and more hi-tech without them necessarily being more advanced "in universe".
     
  20. OpenMaw

    OpenMaw Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Location:
    Everett, Washington
    Except that we already have technical specs that are telling us these new ships are that much more advanced.


    "Captain! We're no match for them, we've exhausted our FX budget!"

    "...My God!"



    There's a line from Terminator 2 that really resonates whenever I read topics like this. Miles Dyson on the T-800 arm and chip. It's something I could imagine a SF engineer saying.

    "It was scary stuff, radically advanced. It was smashed... it didn't work. But it gave us ideas. It took us in new directions... things we would never have thought of."


    I honestly don't see why people are so hung up on the notion that the JJ Verse ships are immensely more powerful than anything we've seen before.

    The Kelvin incident didn't just destroy a Federation starship. It saw a fleet of Klingon ships taking the Narada into custody, no doubt using bits of it for their own technological advancements (which would lead to affects throughout the alpha and beta quadrant over the following decades as Klingons employed more advanced warships.)

    The incursion resulted in UFP seemingly making first contact with dozens of races much sooner than before, including the Cardassians and the implications that the Federation has at some point reopened communications with Romulous. All of these changes would change so many things in unpredictable ways.

    The core of it all: highly advanced technology from the late 24th Century has just landed in the hands of the two major powers of the 23rd century. Even sensor scans would effect things dramatically in the following twenty+ years.