Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Austin 3:16, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2013
    And I really think you have to say that there was some poor tactics not only in Generations but TNG as a whole. The big E fired what, 1-2 phaser blasts then stopped firing while looking for a way to get an edge on an old beater like that? Shoot the damned thing already. The Galaxy class can launch what, 6-10 torpedoes at once? So why didn't they do that with simultaneous phaser spread?
     
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    The Enterprise is the flagship, their crew supposedly the best of the best, and they came up short against a 200-year old Klingon rustbucket (or three) in two timelines. That's not something to be excused or brushed aside, it's direct evidence that ancient ships can more than hold their own in Trek.
     
  3. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    ^ it was a 20 year old BOP that hurt the ENT-D in GEN.

    In context it really wasn't a matter of age of the ships. It had more to do with:

    IN-UNIVERSE: the weapons (torpedos) of the Duras Sisters being able to pierce the hull of the ENT-D. Adjusting torpedo frequencies to the exact ones of the D's shields, I can swallow. This by extension knocked out the magnetic interlocks for the matter-antimatter chamber and causing a warpcore breach. We never got a scene or dialogue suggesting that the crew "ROTATE SHIELD MODULATION"; ya know like they did against the Borg. Assuming that order was given, Geordi's visor would've still relayed the information to the Duras sisters.

    OUT-OF-UNIVERSE: PIS (plot induced stupidity) by Brannon Braga wrote up just to get a scene of the saucer section crashing on Earth. This was the best they could come up with? It was a poorly executed (no pun intended) scene. Listen to the commentary and Braga and Moore admit to A LOT of the convoluted plot points in GEN.
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    So only a few episodes or movies count when comparing how these ships fare in combat? That hardly seems fair.

    And yes, the BoP in GENS was 20 years old, but it was pretty much identical in design to the Klingon Bird of Prey (except for shorter wings) seen in Enterprise's era. Trekverse technology has barely moved in the 200+ years of on-screen canon.
     
  5. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2012
    All we know is on-screen that a piece of space debris can weaken and rock the Enterprise-E's.

    And that a mere photon torpedo was sufficient to breach the saucer/bridge module.

    It appears you are demonstrating some very selective use of the facts there.

    Khan does not possess the knowledge to surpass 24th Century technology off the top of his head, what he did do was he utilised his superior intelligence and ability to learn to help resolve the various technological limitations that starfleet engineers at the time were stumped with. How do you make a phaser/photon torpedo system fire at a much longer range yet remain compact enough to fit on a ship? How do you increase output and efficiency of a phaser pulse beyond that found in a Connie class based on what we understand about phasers? The collaboration of someone like Khan and the best minds of starfleet science lead to the design and construction of a ship exclusively for combat.

    A sucker punch would be firing on a ship that was UNSHIELDED. The Enterprise was fully shielded and trying to escape from the Vengeance to return Khan back to earth.

    The Vengeance fired phasers at the Enterprise atomising enormous parts of her hull with ease.

    The only time I seen any ship do anything like that on a 23rd century ship was a Borg cube on an Excelsior class, in which is a smaller ship than the JJ-prise.


    The torpedoes the Narada fired were overwhelming in numbers as they split and home in their targets, and they travel at on-screen velocities no worse than the fixed pattern photon/quantum torpedoes that 24th century starfleet were pissing around with.

    The JJ-Prise used her forward, port and starboard banks to shoot down what Nero exclaimed "everything" the Narada had.

    So even if the Enterprise E fired her maximum spread of 10 torpedoes at a time at the Vengeance, her phasers would have intercepted everything within a second, and then focus her weapons at the Ent-E whilst the latter waits to reload the next volley.

    I forgot to mention the weapons probes and the torpedo cannons - it would turn ugly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  6. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2012
    I would agree that the Vengeance was a product that need not require UFP committee approval! :evil:

    You could say the Vengeance cost a whopper to build, her warp/impulse emission levels and its impact on the surroundings would parallel that of a 60's tuned muscle car in an environmentalist conscious world , crew safety, on board living standards,diplomatic and scientific capacity is at the bottom of the league.
     
  7. Mycroft Maxwell

    Mycroft Maxwell Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee USA
    Anyone with half a brain knows how technology works. Computing power alone would give the Enterprise E a much better chance. its like an Alienware vs. a Commodore 64... I am sure science behind the RCS thrusters has improved, THE LCARS COMPUTING INTERFACE, and Im not even sure if Duotronics were invented by the time the vengence was launched. The Enterprise E is FAR superior. So is Voyager. So is the Defiant. The Enterprise E would smite the Uss Vengeance as if it were target practice. Think about it. Targeting systems would be far superior, and let us not forget the massive yeild of the quantum torpedoes. In fact, The Vengeance would be as much as a challenge to the Enterprise E as a maquis raider would be.
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    My phone has a more advanced interface than LCARS.

    And again, where is your proof? Shoulds and coulds and assumptions and how you would do it and real life technology does not apply to Star Trek. In Trek, the Klingons use the same ship designs for 225 years and they're still a threat. The Vengeance could be flown by one man. Only the Prometheus (a ship more advanced than the Enterprise-E) has been designed for similar. The Vengeance could beam 75 targets at the same time, which we only saw the likes of in the early 25th century in "All Good Things". And it's 3x faster than an Enterprise which got from Earth to Kronos in a day.
     
  9. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Location:
    The People's Republic of Austin
    Daniel, you can't simultaneously claim that scaling means that the JJTrek ships are substantially larger than everything else, yet also claim that the Birds of Prey throughout TNG were the "same ship design" as the ones from ENT. The VFX scaling for the ships shown throughout the first 4 seasons of TNG was clearly a much much larger ship than the ones shown in the movies, or for that matter in ENT.

    Also, given that the interiors were also different, along with different names and other designators, the ship being externally similar but internally different isn't out of the question. We see plenty of evidence of that sort of retrofitting being possible throughout the series with various upgrades to bridge modules and internal components.

    We also know that from "Relics" that technology progressed sufficiently over the 70 years or so Scotty was in "stasis" that he was basically no longer useful as an engineer on a modern ship. That suggests a level of progress in technology that's substantially faster than anything else.

    We also know that a mining ship (a mining ship!) retrofitted with technology from the 2380s can wipe out a fleet of the Federation's "home" ships in the JJverse along with 40+ ships of Klingon "warbird" manufacture. Narada's performance against a whole host of different opponents suggests that Enterprise was lucky not to be blasted to dust by her, and it was a combination of internal sabotage and the use of something like Jellyfish (also a 2380s design) that kept that final sequence in ST09 plausible.
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    The Klingon D-7/K'tinga class is the same in "Unexpected" as it is in Deep Space Nine (and although that was apparently a last-minute substitute in ENT, the alternate Klingon ship model looked virtually identical to the D-7 too). Yes there were some larger Bird of Prey type ships in TNG, but the type seen in "Rascals" (identified as a K'vort) and GENS (D-12) are both the small 12-man version, and despite strange circumstances both were able to subdue the Starfleet flagship. And as for interior sets, with the exception of STIII all Klingon ships sets have the same layout, aesthetic and computer graphics across the generations. I cite them as Trek's worst example of a species that hasn't changed their technology throughout the franchise - due to a combination of endlessly recycled costumes, models and sets (admittedly understandable due to budgetary constraints) regardless of which era the stories were set in.
    Some novels have suggested that the Klingons took their ships and technology from their former slavers, which IMO makes a lot of sense considering how little what we've seen of Klingon lifestyle and culture is conducive to technological advancement.

    And remember, I'm arguing that the Vengeance stands a better chance because she was built in the aftermath of Narada's rampage in a heavily contaminated timeline. This isn't the old Enterprise versus the Enterprise-E, it's the bastard child of a militarized Starfleet that's been exposed to future technology and put on a more aggressive path for a quarter century.
     
  11. Nob Akimoto

    Nob Akimoto Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Location:
    The People's Republic of Austin
    The type seen in "Rascals" was a reuse of the VFX from "Yesterday's Enterprise" which was a hugely upscaled BOP of about 600-700m. Even if we take the dialogue referring to them as "B'Rels" at face value, they're much larger from a scaling perspective than the tiny 12-man versions we saw in TMP. And we've seen Klingons produce some impressive modern ships anyway like the Negh'var. And since the huuuuge BOPs in "The Defector" were considered to be scary frontline ships that made Tomalok run away despite having a pair of enormous Warbirds with him, I think it's probably a safer assumption that the Klingon ship's internals have been substantially upgraded in the interim along with the gigantism, rather than the other powers stagnating relatively speaking.

    I'm not sure really if we should stick things from "Countdown" in here, but in that, at least, the Enterprise-E was holding her own pretty well against Narada, so I think the question becomes if Vengeance is actually powerful enough to fight toe to toe with Narada.
     
  12. Avro Arrow

    Avro Arrow Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Location:
    Right where I want to be
    It had similar lines, but I certainly wouldn't call it "virtually identical", any more than I would say the original pre-refit 1701 looked "virtually identical" to the refit 1701, even though they had similar lines as well.

    I was so hopeful that CBS would have decided to replace the K'tinga with the D4 in that ep when ENT season 1 was released on blu-ray. I should have known better. :sigh:
     
  13. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    Was it? In that case, my bad.
    Yet when we see the bridge of the "new flagship" Neg'Var, it's rusty and ancient-looking like the rest of the Klingon fleet! I wonder if "new" actually meant newly found and retrofitted from some ancient long-lost Hur'Q/Karsid starbase?
    If we include the comics, perhaps Vengeance uses Narada's Borg technology, or a 23rd century knock-off of it? The entire drilling platform did end up in San Francisco bay, and they'd have sensor readings of Narada going back 25 years. Remember the Defiant, Voyager and Delta Flyer, all of which were designed or later retrofitted with Borg-inspired systems which gave them big tactical advantages.

    [​IMG]
    It looks contemporary to me, like a minor variant, but not a ship from an entire century (or two, in the case of TNG) before. The Raptor class we see more closely resembles the TNG Vor'cha class, and D-5 has very similar nacelles to that TNG ship. It's as if a decision was made to NOT backward engineer more primitive Klingon designs but instead create contemporary ones.
    It would have been awesome to see a recognizable Klingon ship but with a shiny silver brand new bridge.
    I don't think that was ever going to happen, since the producers of the show didn't like the D-4 model and it was the art department (who answer to the producers) and not them who expressed regret over the reuse of the classic Klingon ship.
     
  14. Avro Arrow

    Avro Arrow Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Location:
    Right where I want to be
    Nice pics! :techman: But I don't know, the differences still strike me personally as more significant than just "minor variant". "Minor variant" to me would be like the differences between the TOS D7 and the Gr'oth in Trials and Tribble-ations. YMMV, of course, but to me the D4 does look less advanced.

    How much involvement do the show's producers have with the home video releases? And wasn't their "dislike" something minor along the lines of "not enough windows"? I had just hoped someone would have thought that using the K'tinga had been an unfortunate compromise at the time, and since there was a perfectly good retro design available, let's just replace it for the few scenes in that one episode. But you're probably right that that was never going to happen, since it might have cost them a bit of $$$! ;)

    I personally "mentally substitute" the D4 design anyway, since I find it unpalatable that the K'tinga exists in the 22nd century, but I know from previous posts that you don't share that view.
     
  15. Owen Wildish

    Owen Wildish Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Location:
    Mevagissey, Cornwall, uk
    Apparently Abrams himself said in ether in an interview or dvd commentary that he thought the reboot Enterprise was only slightly bigger than the original, it's the just designer or something that's exaggerated it's size too ridicules proportions, I hope one
    day make a film where the reboot Enterprise and the Enterprise-E (or D) meet, just to show the correct size
     
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
  17. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Location:
    The Enterprise's Restroom
  18. Chriso203

    Chriso203 Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    It is awesome to think such a question by myself and see later in the internet, that there are different forums where people discuss such things and with quite many knowledge, very interesting and a beautiful way to use the internet. I am from Germany, so excuse my not perfect English.

    So, to the interesting question. First I want to take the topic "technology advantage".
    I see the advantage of technology between 23rd and 24th century reduced in more esthetic developments. In TOS as also in the Movies XI and XII the weapon technology seems quite the same as it is in Picard's time. Shields, phasers and photon torpedos (except quantum), Warp speed maximum is 9 in TNG and in Star Trek II they after all reach at least 5. A big step is done between 23rd/24th (kirk/picard) and 22nd century (archer), where you see in comparison very primitive technology used, but I think it has more to do with the writers of Star Trek. While TNG was meant to continue the series with more modern dialoges and requisite equipment to the standard of the 90s (because much developement was done in real 1960s and 1990s television :) ) the series with Archer's Enterprise was meant to show more technological history of the series, where it comes from and how it developes with the time. The development between 19th century and 20th century for us was also very big, but just becauce industrial revolution started quite 160 years ago. The difference between 800 and 900 a.d. or 1500 and 1600 wouldn't be that big I suppose...Nevertheless it is still very difficult to compare the technology and weapon equipment in star trek. While TOS Enterprise is somewhere exposed to be about 200-300m long with primitive laser shots as weapons (has to do more with television special effects from 60s!!) the same Enterprise in XI is shown as hard battleship, when you look it's firepower to provide the missiles from Nero's ship and it is called to be now about 700m long (??).
    The quantum torpedos from E only destroyed the Borg cube because of the help from other ships with other hundres of missles and because of concentrating the firepower to one weak point, NOT because quantum torpedos are quantum torpedos, (and because of the star trek writers :) ) at least my conclusion. And don't forget, the USS Vengeance is a war ship! Its first aim is to destroy other ships from the same century, not only to be able to fight, but to destroy! She had more developed technology, developed by Khan!! a cunning man who knew exactly about the technology and how to infiltrate and to destroy it (not only to fight it). Even in real life the military has much more technology than we have, maybe for some decades more advantaged technology in use to be superior in conflicts. Next point!

    Conclusions taken from movie scenes:
    Someone here said, that you can compare more realistically, when you see how the different ships attack same targets. Although many of the following examples of course depend also on the writers of star trek, I want take them as serious and compare them. The Enterprise in XI is shown as quite strong ship, while, as said above, it provides itself from Neros attacks (future technology), gives the crew time to escape and even rams Nero without getting destroyed before.
    The same ship gets the hell bitten out by only 2 drive-bys from the Vengeance!! It has no power for anything after this attack!! It falls on the planet!!! So you can say Enterprise Kirk vs Enterprise Picard and Vengeance vs Enterprise Picard is a totally different thing! You see in VII that the Enterprise D is also quite voulnerable without shields after taking some shots from Bird of Prey's Disruptor. E seems to can take more shots in Nemesis and still keeps its fight ability. BUT!! inside Vengeance!! (not on the surface) 72 photon torpedos detonate and the ship is still manoeuvrable! And still after crashing on the planet it doesn't explode, while someone here wrote that Enterprise D's warpcore broke once a season :) :D hahaa!!

    Specifications USS Vengeance vs Enterprise E:
    These are the most significant facts that sould lead to the conclusion of the topic. The Vengeance is a battleship, created to destroy, not to fight, ships from its time, with use of more advantaged technology and specifications. It is called to be 1450m long? I don't know if it is true, but if yes, it could easily RAM the Enterprise D/E and kill it in that way. Remember, twice the length is NOT twice the size!! A white shark at 1,50m weighs about 65kg, at 4m maybe 600kg and at 7m over 2tons!! Twice length, more width and more hight leads to more massive material to hold the chassis (car vs truck, truck is not only longer, but therefore much more massive to hold the chassis). Maybe this is also the reason why the Vengeance has a hole in the hull, so the second section doesn't get involved when the first penetrates a ship.
    A big size normally sinks the manoeuvrability, but as you see in the chase at warp speed, the Vengeance closures in very precise steps to attack the old Enterprise. Also when flying around to do the "drive-by" it seems to move very fast and be very manoeuvrable.
    The most significant fact for me is, that the Enterprise D/E is built for a crew of many houndred people, and it is a research vessel, of course with huge defense equipment because of the dangers in star trek universe, but still a research vessal. Most space inside this 700m ship is used for rooms, beds, scientific rooms, bars etc. while the Vengeance (1450m) can be flight by just one person and has a crew of 11 (?). So the 1450m are used for many Energy knots, for attack, defense and manoeuver and navigation purposes. I guess you can hit the Vengeance at many points and it would be still at full operation, because she was MEANT to be it, while the Enterprise (all of them) have weak points and work very central. A USS Missouri from 1942 (?, of 44?) would still kill any other ship face to face, and is still one of the fastest (34kn, the newest carriers do something about 37kn). And her hull is still almost unpenetrateable, physic remains the same (I talk face to face without planes and nuclear missiles).

    I would give my money for Vengeance. It is still a military secret and you didn't even see much of her, maybe she has more weapons or abilities that weren't shown.
     
  19. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Location:
    Who is John Galt?
    Really like how it looks, too, but the primary hull seems quite devoid of any meaningful detailing. Aside from the bridge, all the lower decks appear to be quite barren and lacking in any visual clues to indicate what's located down there. The secondary hull, on the other hand, definitely captures that functionality quite effectively. It's almost like whoever made this diagram started off down in the secondary hull and kind of ran out of steam as they worked their way up.