Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Austin 3:16, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    This is a completely mature and proportional response to someone making a movie with a ship you don't like.

    :vulcan:
     
  2. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

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    No one has a problem with the Vengeance firing phasers while at warp? It's been established (not in the JJverse though) that phasers whether beams or burst fire do not fire FTL, which is why my first thought that the phaser arcs that hit the Enterprise were not a feature of the design but the energy falling behind and the Vengeance had to adjust for this. Of course later shots did fire straight.

    As far as torpedoes being avoidable, the Vengeance didn't seem to be too light on her feet so it seems that a spread of quantum torpedoes would almost certainly hit, especially given the large surface area to work with.

    Enterprise-e survived multiple torpedo and disruptor hits before losing her shields, and of course there's no way to be certain but the Reman/Romulan weapons were at least as powerful if not more than the Vengeance weapons.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    TOS and Voyager fired their phasers at warp all the time. As far as I know, the only thing that says they can't is the TNG Technical Manual, which was flat-out wrong in that instance.
     
  4. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

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    Can I get an episode name(s)? I wasn't a voyager fan, and trust nothing done in TOS. TOS continuity was a disaster at best.
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    "Basics" comes to mind, with Voyager constantly swatting away Kazon ships with phasers while at warp. And just now Enterprise's "Shockwave" comes to mind, showing Suliban pods hammering the NX-01 with phaser fire at warp.

    I can't think of any canon mentions of phasers not functioning at warp, beyond something about the targeting sensors during ENT's first season (and even then, Malcolm said he'd have it fixed shortly)
     
  6. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

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    Now that is an excellent point with the Suliban. I hadn't considered that at all. Are we only limited to using on screen examples, or can we assume that what we've seen in continuity on all episodes should be considered as a basis for what armaments the Enterprise-E should have? That being the case, then since Nemesis occurred after the last episode of Voyager then it would make sense that after the refit she got after her beating from the Scimitar Starfleet loaded her with Transphasic torpedoes. And that is self explanatory I'd think.
     
  7. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I see it as the Enterprise-E we saw in FC, INS and NEM without anything extra.

    But no doubt, the "Endgame"-modded Voyager would smite the Vengeance with a single shot.
     
  8. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    I thought once TOS got it altogether, it was astonishingly consistent continuity-wise (for it's time). It has a few contradictions in the very beginning with what we all accept Star Trek mythology to be now, to be sure. But once the terminology was finally nailed down, probably about two-thirds the way through the first season, then they stayed pretty consistent with it, didn't they?
     
  9. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    It wouldn't need to evade torpedoes, it simply would shoot them down before impact.

    Even the Kelvin demonstrated some resilience against the splitting torpedoes from the Narada.


    If the Scimitar's weapons were as powerful as the Vengeance, it would have blown off a significant chunk out of the Ent-E saucer. Instead, the Ent-E shields were weakened and only the front of the bridge breached from incoming torpedo fire.

    Hull strength and resistance to fire seems to have not significantly improved in the 24th century, the Enterprise D was in-salvageable after crash landing.

    The Enterprise E shields seemed in-effective against physical contact with space debris in that battle against the Scimitar also.
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, but this is a sort of TOS era film. Ships didn't have warpcore breaches in that era, probably because they were built better.
     
  11. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

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    The debris did not hurt the hull, it did damage the shields just a bit. And I'm surprised you know the yields of the weapons of both the Scimitar and Vengeance to say that the Scimitar is weaker. It's very likely the E's shields are just that strong.

    It just seems naive to say that a 300 year old guy, however advanced he is could make a leap in technology that surpasses 24th century tech in any timeline.

    So the Vengeance cripples the JJprise in a sucker punch and suddenly it's 25th century powerful?
     
  12. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

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    If you mean the slow moving apparently rocket fueled torpedoes then yes, but she did it with beam phasers. Then the JJprise did it using all her banks, so if that's a good way too keep the phasers off the E-e so it can attack then good call!
     
  13. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think an arguement could be still be made that ships got weaker after TOS if you go by on screen evidence.

    The TOS is a B-52. Very powerful.
    TMP--Excelsior are B-2 type sophistication

    I tend to think the lower dome of the TOS is a huge dilithium crystal--capable of focusing power from any point on its surface.

    The pulse phasers are a bit weaker in the refit--but cover better. Excelsior even more so.

    Ent-D is an explorer--maybe greater overall power-but greener tech.

    TOS and TMP is the Norad era of Trek.

    Today we are looking at hypersonic missiles, but the old B-52's skybolt is more potent even if less advanced.

    Therefore I might say the TOS Enterprise might actually be Vengeance level thinking, that a more sophisticated pacifist block was moving away from...
     
  14. Mycroft Maxwell

    Mycroft Maxwell Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    An F-22 would smite a hole fleet of B-52s, migs and what else you got , and thats just a few decades of tech. WE ARE TALKING 100 YEARS!!!

    And those werent Torpedoes the narada was firing, those were some sort of damn astroid busting tools for mining. Dont forget the narada was a MINING VESSEL. Id imagine any ship could shoot down a few mining tools. You people know how outrageous you sound? Do you guys not forget the tensions between Federation and Romulans? Hell yeah they still be making ships more powerful. Then theres the increased tensions with the klingons, that first cardassian war, the dominion threat, the borg threat. You can freakin gaurentee that starfleet has kept its ships defense capablilities up to par with its war bent neighbors.

    As for that whole colllision thing, you have forgotten that the enterprise E's shield were already severly weakened by the Scimitar, before crashing into a piece of large debris that DID NOT damage the enterprise. If you look it was a shield impact.

    so I will say again, USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-E WOULD not only beat the Vegeance, hell it would probably one shot it with a photon torpedo....remember the Nth Degree, and Q who where if too close to the target, the enterprise D could be destroyed by its own, single photon torpedo deonation?
     
  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The Klingons use the same rusty old D7 battlecruisers and birds of prey in the mid-22nd century as they do in the late 24th. One of those old birds of prey took down the Enterprise-D in Generations. I think Vengeance would stand a much better chance than you think - and that'a not even including he in-universe stats quoted in this thread that give Vengeance more powerful photons than Voyager.
     
  16. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

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    Yes, with its weapons able to penetrate the shields. Don't omit that fact.
     
  17. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Again, the Vengeance era tech is not the same as TOS era tech. That would be outclassed by the Ent-E...not so apparant here.
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    ^^True, but that shielded Klingon ship survived Enterprise's phaser blasts easily enough. And don't forget "Yesterday's Enterprise", where 3 birds of prey were more than a match for the -D.
     
  19. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica Ensign Newbie

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    Yes, the Enterprise D had to sit in one place essentially being a sitting duck to protect Ent-C. No evasive maneuvers, easy for the Klingons.
     
  20. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And those were kvordts or whatever. They showed a small (Non L-42?) BoP that ran away quickly enough.

    For the blu-ray, REL's ship should be the Kvort.