Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Roboturner913, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^

    Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.

    Voluntary merging of sovereign nations takes years, if not decades. Look at say... the EU, it's been years now and still that rubber band union of nations is still barely functional and seems to be causing as many problems as it's solving. If anything it should be the militant powers like the Cardassians and Klingons who rapidly expand.
     
  2. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Twentieth century cities really don't work as a model. Few have independent existences in most countries, and in the US, they are extraordinarily limited public corporations, not even mentioned in the Constitution.

    And the EU does make laws: it has a parliament that meets in Brussels and Strasbourg.
     
  3. Roboturner913

    Roboturner913 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The above conversation was just one of a whole bunch of times Quark grumbled about the corrupting hew-mon influence on his own society. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was not the only person in the 24th century that felt that way.
     
  4. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    When did Cardassia and Ferenginar join the UFP?

    Quark and Garrak complaining about Federation expansion is on par with a Frenchman and a German complaining about imperialism 100 years ago: they are competitors in this field, not unequals.
     
  5. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Well for one the Federation doesn't annex populatd worlds, it

    a.>generally avoids contact if they are pre-warp.
    b.>Invites them to join if they are advanced enough
    c.>If they are asked to leave, they leave.
     
  6. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hmm. :p

    Allow me :p

    to give :p

    a hint :p

    of my :p

    intent. :p
     
  7. Shawnster

    Shawnster Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You seriously do need to quit listening to Romulan propaganda :rommie:
     
  8. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Once they have warp drive, they're going to be heading out into the greater galactic neighborhood and meeting other spacefaring races one way or the other. The Federation is just sending the welcome wagon to try to keep negative incidents from happening. Picard explains this in the episode "First Contact".
     
  9. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Typically propaganda is aimed at the masses. Not your opposing counterparts who know enough to contradict such statements if they're not true.
     
  10. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You're assuming the romulan doesn't believe himself the propaganda. Considering he's military, he was indoctrinated for years during training with just such propaganda.

    Actually, combined with internal repression/punishments (tal shiar), propaganda is quite effective at keeping the population in line.
    Just look at the japanese/german populations during 1943-45.
    In Germany's case, there was some resistance - after its members agonised for years about the morals of killing Hitler, the attempts fail (dramatised in a movie with Tom Cruise). Hitler kills a few thousand officers, suspected of being sympathisers.
    The result: no one even looked funny at Hitler after that - even when being sent to death for nothing, the war being clearly lost and many elites being in the process of making their escape.

    Culture being corrupted is non-sense.
    There's no such thing as a pure, clean culture to be corrupted, dirtied, lessened.
    Cultures are changing, mutating entities in their essence.

    But the 24th century prime directive assumes cultures are immaculate and must not change, that interfering will cause mass suicides or otherwise dirty the cultures. Sociological non-sense.
    Another poster correctly remarked how concepts of hygiene are erroneously being used by 24th century trek in conjunction with cultural contact.

    If that's the federation's credo, it, by definition, should not go out exploring and take the chance of "corrupting" other cultures - meaning, yes, the UFP expansion is at odds with its own ideals. It should be isolationist to a ridiculous degree, afraid to even respond to hails for fear of contaminating the caller.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  11. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Part of the problem is that Trek uses the Prime Directive to describe two related but effectively different protocols.

    Non-contamination only applies to pre-warp cultures. They're not supposed to be contacted or influenced until they're considered "ready".

    For warp cultures, it's non-interference...the Federation and Starfleet aren't supposed to impose their will or beliefs on other cultures, particularly by force. Of course, there are limits to this. Warp cultures are out there, a part of the greater interstellar community. The Federation interacts openly with them, which can involve diplomacy, trade, and even war.

    Federation members are expected to conform to certain Federation standards, but nobody's making them join.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  12. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Doesn't the PD by the late 24th century, have something like 47 sub-sections?
     
  13. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^I don't know, my copy's not due to arrive for 351 years....
     
  14. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A expectation perhaps, but is it a requirement?

    Could the worlds and species that make up general membership tell the federation council "you know, that might be a interesting idea, but we have to take a pass on that."

    "Nice suggestion thought."

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  15. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Because it's assumed that any interaction will 'contaminate' a culture, deviate it from its unaltered, pure 'natural evolution' defined as a cosmic plan in whose preservation the federation religiously believes.

    Yes - warp being seeming an utterly arbitrary delimitation - until Picard explains the reason in 'First contact', that is. The reason being that the warp culture will encounter other cultures and will be corrupted anyway.

    First - the federation is a gathering of religious fanatics, their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.
    Second - the federation argument for contacting warp cultures is flawed, if we accept as premise the faith about contaminating cultures: just because a person may get robbed/beaten in the future is not a valid reason for one to rob/beat him/her now.

    In conclusion, the UFP expansion remains at odds with its own ideals (religion being a better term).
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  16. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^I'd love to respond to that, but I'm not familiar with the show that you've been watching.
     
  17. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think there's some truth to Eddington's analysis of the Federation. "They want to assimilate people, but they don't say it." They want to make people "Normal, like them".

    But, they do it always by influence and never by coercion. As Odo says "The Federation has its flaws but the desire for conquest is not one of them".

    The Federation's ideals are not to be completely neutral in the fate of the universe. They want to make friends with anybody and they say 'You can join our super-beneficial community but you can't have civil wars or slavery'.
     
  18. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Such behaviour is most definitely at odds with the 24th century Prime Directive as defined by Picard, Janeway&co.
     
  19. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Your argument assumes that the Prime Directive is an end unto itself, and takes it to a ridiculous extreme. The main purpose of Starfleet is to explore space and contact alien civilizations. The Prime Directive defines the limits under which they do that.

    Anything taken to the extreme produces the opposite effect. If one takes the Prime Directive to an extreme that wasn't intended, then there'd be no Starfleet, because the Federation member races would all be extreme isolationists who never left their own planets.
     
  20. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Indeed, The Old Mixer. That's what I said that the UFP's expansion is at odds with its ideals (the Prime Directive, specifically).

    As for my 'assumption' - it's not an assumption, it's what the characters of the show repeatedly said and how they acted. The 24th century Prime Directive IS an end unto itself.
    See for example Dear Doctor, Homeward or even episodes where the crew made the sane decision in order to hear the pro prime directive arguments: Pen Pals, Who watches the watchers. For warp capable species, see for example Redemption or The circle.
    The summary - the 'cosmic plan' is the best option for all species' evolution; any interference will corrupt, dirty this cosmic plan, leading to a less desirable evolutionary path, regardless of the circumstances.
    This 'ridiculous extreme' IS what the 24th century Prime Directive has become (as per the intent of the writers).
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013