Is TBOBW As Good As You Remembered?

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by AdmiralScreed, May 30, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    yes they're as good as I remembered. TNG's finest hour-TV Trek never surpassed the BOBW cliffhanger of season 3.
     
  2. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Normally I would agree, but in the case of Scorpion I thought they did a great job making the Delta Quadrant seem like a truly scary and dangerous place again, and making you really fear for the VOY crew (at least for those 2 episodes).

    Agreed, although for me the destruction of the Odyssey by the Jem-Hadar comes awfully close.
     
  3. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    To be fair, in TBOBW it didn't seem to me like much was at stake outside of Picard and the Enterprise. Yes, there was that brief scene where we saw the destruction at Wolf 359, but other than that we didn't see many other ships involved.

    this is going in a different direction, but I honestly prefer some of the VOY Borg episodes to TBOBW. TNG gave us the Borg, but I think Voyager fleshed them out and made them a little more complex and interesting. Season 6 Survival Instinct was probably my favorite because it explored their humanity and the psychology of the drones in a new and fresh way.
     
  4. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    this is why I like message boards like this. I feel the opposite way on that. I think VOY made the Borg far less interesting and complex(although to be fair ST:FC started it with the queen) through their overuse, and it made them a lot less threatening as well.

    The first two appearances of the Borg, in "Q Who" and "BOBW" remain their best to me. It's fun to get the other perspective.
     
  5. WillsBabe

    WillsBabe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    BOBW always holds up well for me. Sure, part two never manages to match part one. But, all in all, even after all these years I think it still hits the mark. Part of that for me, I admit, is that I always have a flashback to the first time I saw the episode, and the feelings associated with that always come rushing back remiding me of good times (a bit like TMP).
     
  6. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I agree wholeheartedly. The Borg were at there best when they were silent, deadly enemies. None of that talk you into submission or reason with you bs VOY added.

    Best Borg showings IMO

    TNG Q Who Introduction of an enemy Picard and his crew were quickly outmatched by. The taunting by Q and Picard begging for assistance made this all the more potent.
    Rating A

    TNG BOBW still holds ups. A fine go get'em action two parter. Rating A+

    TNG First Contact The Best film TNG has to offer and still holds up compared to modern go get'em action flicks like STID. Like i said the Borg are at there best when they are being threatening, doing things and saying very little. The Borg Picard and Worf were fighting the majority of the film carry the action and pace. While the queen and he subplot could be cut out of the film and you wouldn't lose anything really. She's really only there to have a main villain for unfamiliar audiences to identify as the master and to tempt Data.
    Rating A+

    VOY Scorpion After the abysmal episode "Unity". This episode gives the audience and fans what they wanted after first contact. Elevated to new heights because it shows the Borg struggling against an equally powerful adversary Species 8472. With the VOY crew largely along for the ride.
    Rating A

    ENT Regeneration After a series of disappointing outings in VOY we finally get an episode that "gets" the Borg". The Borg are menacing and proactive. These Borg do much and say next to nothing. By episodes end they remain enigmatic, mysterious and threatening.
    Rating A


    Borg Episodes that are lesser sons of greater sires

    TNG I, Borg Doesn't feature the Borg as an antagonist, but interesting character study on Borg becoming individuals. Not the best but it's a great contrast to VOY's "The Gift". Where Janeway forces the now individual 7 of 9 to become an individual and stay on Voyager. While Picard allowed Hugh to choose whether he wanted to stay an individual.
    Rating B

    TNG Descent i don't count as a Borg episode since the Borg as a collective did not appear and was only a collection of discarded drones.

    VOY Unity Stupid pile of junk. Good thing the Borg had wigs on those cubes otherwise the mystery of this episode would've been solved in the first couple of minutes. Neat contrast to Hugh from "I, Borg". Borg drones become individuals and the first thing they do is form a NEW collective. No one escapes the Borg!
    Rating D

    VOY Drone Takes the piss and extreme risk involved by allowing the birth of a 29th century Borg. Janeway obviously didn't learn from the episode "Future's End" when she faced 29th century tech.
    Rating C

    Infinite Regress Silly at times but when Seven is lost among the billions of minds racing through her head, you can really feel sorry for the Borg's victims. But it doesn't keep the tone balanced enough to continue that emotional resonance. Rating C

    Dark Frontier I find the parts with the Hansen's annoying. The Borg are downgraded so much that it becomes comical how easily the Hansen's follow and beam in and off the cube. Equate this to say the Cylons from NuBSG, or Daleks from Doctor Who. Imagine the Hansen or whoever family stalking one of theirships for 3 years, beaming on and off it, and beaming daleks or cyclons off it and performing tests on it before returning it to their ship. If that had ever happened how could you ever take them serious as threats ever again? Not to mention Janeway stands in the center of a Borg unimatrix, surrounded by MILLIONS of drons and basically talks the queen in to submission before being beamed away. The Borg can assimilate billions of people and conquer thousands of worlds, but can't destroy Voyager when they are literally in the belly of the beast?
    Rating C+

    Survival Instinct Interesting, gripping and tragic. While I was tired of the talks about individuality by this point during my run though VOY. The premise and what 7 inadvertently did to those her fellows drones is scary and truly signifies you never really can leave the collective if liberated
    Rating B

    VOY Collective Borg children... taking the piss hard in this episode.
    Rating F

    VOY Child's Play taking the piss to and even higher heights. Is that simple prosthetic on his nose and forehead all that it takes to pass for an alien this far in to VOY? Plus the episode was stupid.
    Rating F

    VOY Unimatrix 01 Regeneration leads to a happy dreamland for all Borg where no Borg remembers when they wake up. Alice or rather Seven of Nine has stumbled into this magical land and adventure ensues. And the Red Queen's off with their heads! Remember what the door mouse said!
    But no seriously, the Borg are shown to be on one sever, all with the same wifi access for communication and adaptaion when in range of one another. Shockingly with all this the Borg Queen can't find a way into Unimatrix 01 or just pull the plug and or make a new sever for the Borg???
    Rating C

    VOY Q2 "DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!!! Said Papa Q. Or else what? By this time in VOY the Borg have been neutered. I always expected the Borg would seek higher aspirations, become pure energy beings like the Bajoran Prophets, Metrons or Q, but it never happened. Maybe that's what Papa Q is worried about in the Borg's future?
    Rating is Irrelevant

    VOY Endgame Borg are dealt a crushing blow by the hyper-inflated ego Capt Janeway and Deus Ex Adm Janeway. Capt Janeway; who despite earlier seasons lamenting her decision about stranding her crew in the DQ. Now meets her future self and instead of taking time to reflect on her experiences and the future knowledge her counterpart gives her. Capt Janeway's head swells even more. Adm Janeway is proof of her success in the end no matter how high the cost may grow! Also wasn't Part 1 of "Endgame" the same stick as "TNG AGT's" or maybe i'm seeing parallels where they aren't there.
    Rating D


    Remember all ratings are subjective to opinion and these are my opinions. Speaking of did anyone ever read the novel where Janeway was made a Borg queen? This amazing artist did a pic of one. Janeway being made a Borg Queen time traveling to battle Captain Janeway in VOY "Endgame" would've made a more satisfying ending me thinks.

    http://www.g672.deviantart.com
    [​IMG]
     
  7. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    FC certainly has a lot to recommend it, but personally I thought the Borg themselves were one of the least effective things in it. Frakes' TV-style directing is never really able to make them truly scary or intimidating (resorting to cheesy tricks like the red lasers coming on all at once in the dark), and the constant cutting back to lighthearted scenes on the planet undercuts a lot of the tension as well.

    And while Alice Krige was fantastic as the Borg Queen, her presence suddenly makes the Borg as a whole seem a lot less interesting and unique (they're basically just the zenomorphs from Aliens now).
     
  8. jimbotron

    jimbotron Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Part I still holds up as one of the best Trek productions ever.

    Part II - especially when presented with Part I - feels lacking. Part I had mood and dread with great atmosphere. Part II felt too procedural and by-the-numbers by comparison. Part II is still a top 10 episode though.
     
  9. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Didn't Guinan say that "when they come, they're gonna come in force"? That suggests lots of cubes to me.
     
  10. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Even though they had the Cube go straight to Earth?
     
  11. Anna Yolei

    Anna Yolei Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I remember reading that BOBW was a two-parter because Patrick Stewart had yet to sign on for season four, and TPTB wanted a way to write him out in case he walked away.

    In any even, speaking as someone that saw the episode way after all that drama went down, the better story was that between Riker and Shelby, IMO. Sorry, but the drama of Locutus of Borg is kind of undercut when I know he'll be fine by the end of part II.

    That being said:

    Absolutely.
     
  12. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Captain Captain

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    Agree to disagree: Redemption and Unification are right up there, too. Too tough to call for me.
     
  13. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes, they are better than I remember. I think it was skillful what Riker did to get Picard. You think he's just trying to save Picard, but they are trying to gain access to the Borg to make them less effective. It uses their brains. It gives them the technology to reverse assimilation. Too much of Star Trek (especially now) is just having the bigger weapon or the perfect torpedo or phaser. Sometimes the plot just resolves itself without ever thinking too hard about why our heroes survived. It's bland and boring for this Star Trek fan, unlike Best of Both Worlds. The second half is perfect TNG. It exposes the flaws of having one, collective mind. The Borg created their own demise by having Picard as a representative and linked to the hive mind. In the first half, the Borg use all of Picard's knowledge to put us on the edge of assimilation. In the second half, we turn the tables. We use the conduit that is in Picard to find a way to end the conflict. That's fantastic, and something I couldn't think of in a million years.

    Part one builds the action. I feel the tension in part two when they have no answer for the Borg. To see the graves of all those Starfleet officers and ships at Wolf 359, that's in the second half. You don't feel for all those officers? It was a dark place to take Trek, a real risk, especially TNG. I found myself asking, "How will they get out of this? Will we be at war for the rest of the run of the show?"

    We see the "What would you do?" scene with Guinan and Riker. The writers are able to tackle moving on from having Picard without firing Patrick Stewart. And it's part of Riker's story that he's thrust into command because of losing Picard, getting what he always wanted, and if he was Shelby, he might revel in the promotion a little. But he doesn't. Picard is gone, and he has to think differently than Picard. His "unorthodox" strategy saves Earth as we know it because it is something Picard would never do, risk one man for the sake of the entire Federation. It is bad strategy. But he is the key to ending this conflict. They tied both getting Picard back on the ship and ending the conflict. Think about it--how else would you have done it? Picard is over there, do we kill him? That was the cliffhanger. Does Picard have to lead an assault on-board the Enterprise and we capture him? This is just a masterful piece of writing when you think about it a little. It's original, unlike a lot of Trek now that is just standard "blow them up" fare.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  14. MikeS

    MikeS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Have to disagree with your rating of this one. For the reasons listed in the post above mine. This is an interesting story with an interesting premise - it's the Tower of Babel, not just cool 'splosions and stuff.
     
  15. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Have you read my novelization of these episodes? (See link in my signature) Because that's exactly the same view I have of part 2. If the resolution had been, "Oh, we've found if we put a subspace invetror in the deflector dish, our weapon will work!" then it would have been cheap. The best resolutions are always, I think, the ones achieved by superior brain power, not superior firepower.

    I love the way Picard beat the Sheliak, for example.
     
  16. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Even going back to TOS--The Corbomite Manuever. "Not Chess, Mr. Spock, poker." In a show about the human condition, it is better to use their brains then to use brawn.

    I haven't read a Star Trek novel in close to 15 years, and I never read the Best of Both Worlds. Maybe it's time to change that.
     
  17. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    For the criticism about the single Borg cube, circa 1990 it had not been established there were thousands of cubes over in the DQ. All we knew about at the time was one cube.

    The Klingons and Romulans were not there because they did not have time to get to Earth. And the Romulans wouldn't have gotten involved anyway, they would have taken the extra time to shore up their own defenses rather than try to protect the Federation.

    Part two isn't as good as part one, but taken together they are one of the finest hour and halfs in the Star Trek canon.
     
  18. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Part 1's cliffhanger will forever get me pumped. The moment Riker showed me how badass he could be.
     
  19. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    It'll never be as amazing and thrilling as it was when first watched. When you know how it's all going to end ahead of time, it just doesn't have quite the same punch.
     
  20. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I still love it and it remains my favorite episode of the run. I actually like part 2 better now because I don't have to wait months between viewings. Seeing it as one whole "movie" actually was pretty damned cool. The story holds together nicely considering part 2 wasn't figured out when they went on hiatus.
     

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