Is Star Trek Interracially revolutionary?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Hyfen_Underskor, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    When you say "seemingly", then that's an indication that you're not sure.

    But I'm not really sure what you're ultimately getting at. I don't understand your usage of the word/question "and", when I think think the statement I made is very clear in relation to the Cold War generational gap issue. And I don't see where your reference to hatred of blacks, Jews, and gays play in.

    What exactly is it I shouldn't be commenting on? I'm getting the impression that it's so much an issue of lack of knowledge, but something that just shouldn't be discussed.
     
  2. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    With respect, this doesn't really answer the question. It's not a bad question, but it's just a question concerning how things should be, vs. how they really are.

    I'm assuming that you had a problem with my comment "the U.S. is a color-coded nation". And maybe assuming that I condone this notion.
     
  3. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    There have been films made in the West that feature Russian characters in leading roles. Two come to mind:

    1979 gave us Meteor, with Brian Kieth and Natalie Wood playing Russians

    1983 had Gorky Park starring William Hurt as member of the Militsiya. Most of the characters are Russian.

    The Blue Bird from 1976 was a Soviet-American production filmed in the USSR.

    On the acting front, dancers turned actors Alexander Godunov and Mikhail Baryshnikov spring to mind. Mila Jovovich, Mila Kunis and Anton Yelchin were all born in the USSR. Elya Baskin has made a solid career as Hollywood's go to Russian. Since the Russian mob is a popular bad guy, a lot of Russian actors are finding work play mob bosses and enforcers.
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Calling something a fact doesn't make it a fact. Support by the evidence makes it a fact. I've been able to offer a large number of counterexamples to refute your claims, but you haven't offered a single specific instance where that generation-old rivalry has any influence on the portrayal of Russians in TV. Give me examples.


    And I've already proven to you that you're wrong, but you didn't get the point. Ilya Kuryakin was not a bit player. Although he wasn't part of the show when it started, he quickly became equal in importance to the lead actor, and probably more popular. He was the star of the show, or rather, one of two stars who were equal in every way that mattered.


    But we were talking about the casting of a lead role in a future Trek series. I still don't buy your premise that an antiquated political rivalry would have any bearing on that.


    Of course there are always some racists and idiots -- hell, the whole "Birther" nonsense and "closet Muslim" nonsense about President Obama is just dogwhistle code for "we don't like him because he's not white." But despite that, he still got elected president twice, and was the first president since Dwight Eisenhower to be elected with over 51% of the popular vote two times in a row. Just because bigots still exist, that doesn't mean they still have the clout to determine the outcome of elections or the success of television shows. With each passing year, they become less and less of a factor as a younger, more multicultural generation grows in influence.

    Heck, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who see the Chinese as the next great threat to America, or who are prejudiced against Asians in general, but right now the half-Chinese Kristin Kreuk is the lead actress in Beauty and the Beast, Lucy Liu is the female lead in Elementary, and Ming-Na is the female lead in Joss Whedon's S.H.I.E.L.D. pilot which is currently filming. And two of the most popular animation franchises are Kung Fu Panda and the Asian-themed Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra. Racism hasn't been exterminated, no, but it has less influence now than it did in the past.

    By the same token, of course I'm sure there are still some old-guard Cold Warriors who don't like Russians, but they're not the ones making decisions about television casting, and they're not a large enough percentage of the audience to influence those decisions. You're dwelling so much on these lingering negative influences that you're overlooking all the more positive influences that counter them.
     
  5. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    First off, I think that you haven't yet got off the relating Russian portrayal to racism idea, so I have my doubts that you're going to relate to these examples. One fairly good example would be the Rocky movie (movies of course being shown on TV) featuring the Russian boxer Ivan Drago (that I referred to earlier). The Russian fighter had the luxury of the highest tech training devices, suggesting a sort of spoon-fed privilege, where the American fighter had to rough it in the great outdoors, braving the elements, suggesting more bravado (of course then again Rocky is ethnic Italian, so I can't get too upset).

    There was also the movie starring Mikhail Baryshnikov and Gene Hackman (the name of the movie escapes me at the moment). While it was nice to see a Russian national star in an American movie, which of the two was the real hero in the movie? Who valiantly risked their life for the other? Basically, Gene Hackman. Do you really think the Russian was going to be the self sacrificial hero?

    Of course there's good old Flash Gordon. Granted, this goes back to the early 20th century, the tradition of the American space hero teamed with a Russian scientist Dr. Zarkoff (at least the name sounds Russian) is certainly not going to change any time soon. While the good (Russian) doc was on the side of the good guys, who gets the hot blond (along with an apparent choice of a hot brunette)? I'm afraid our model Russian will just have to stick with those beautiful coke bottle shaped.....test tubes.

    As I said, none of this involves blatant discriminatory stereotypes, the first being the most over-the-top. It's really more subtle than blatant.



    The only real way you could prove me wrong is if Star Trek incorporates a Russian captain into a series as the main character. Or if one of the already produced ST series has already done so without my knowing it (I haven't seen any outside of TOS, and TNG, so it is theoretically possible as it stands now). This being so since this was my initial proclamation.


    Tell me honestly, do you really think that if a new ST series came out this year, that it's possible the main character, captain of the series' star ship could be Russian? And you can't use the it makes sense that an American show would have an American lead actor response since we know that ST has no problem with a French commander.

    I could be wrong, but I don't think so.


    I don't think that's the case with all of them who address those issues. In addition, there's also been a number of false accusations against conservatives of being racist, disliking Obama because he is black. Remember the black cloud comment by Rick Perry, where the recording of this comment was doctored up to make it appear that he was referring to Obama....without an apology after getting caught (I forgot which media figure pulled this stunt)?


    Like I said, and you even agreed, the media markets, thus perpetuates racism to the public. Racism thrives in the media. And it's very much alive and well among the populace.
    One of the problems is that you really haven't presented any counters. Asian female actresses like Lucy Liu are not a good example. Ever since Madame Butterfly flew into western culture, western media has often utilized the Asian female, white male couple theme. Have you ever seen Lucy Liu paired with an Asian man?

    Asian women are usually portrayed as the love interest of White men. And Asian men are usually portrayed as geeks, kung fu eunuchs, gangster eunuchs (see the beginning of the movie Hancock), etc. Hollywood has emasculated the Asian man since they started rolling film to this very day. One of the cruelest stereotypes against any race is promoted by Hollywood, which is aimed at Asian males. It's not just some racist jerks (like the 2 disc jockeys in Washington DC), but people who produce popular TV shows and movies.
     
  6. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    There's never been a law against non Anglo-Saxons/Dutch running for president, but:

    “This is an English and Dutch country! Everyone else is here on sufferance,” - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    None of those candidates, no matter how close, actually became president...

    So we're left a little bit in the dark as to how much, if any of that, was at least partially due to non-Northern European ethnic phobia?
     
  7. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    The source of this FDR quote is...?
     
  8. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    However there were laws against Catholics running for office in some states.
     
  9. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    They ran and were viable candidates. Agnew was the Vice President. Dukakis was the nominee of the Democratic Party. One of two major parties in the USA.
     
  10. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Slavics in general, like southern Europeans have been considered different. As far as Russian, there is an Asiatic element to us. Most of Russian is in Asia. I'm pretty sure I have Tatar blood in me judging from a picture of a relative from many years ago, who have that Asiatic look.
     
  11. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I have absolutely no idea.
     
  12. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    The States at that time were sort of like mini-European theocracies, so I think that was mostly a theological issue than ethnic, although ethnicity may have had some part.

    Even today, 6 States I believe have a law that states that one must believe in a higher power to run for office.
     
  13. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Americans have had little quirks that cause us to judge by somethings irrelevant to being able to handle political offices like the president. Have Americans judged by appearance? Probably. I think Americans have always preferred a tall president. I think there's something about seeing pictures of our president with his head above the leaders of other countries.

    As far as intra-white/European ethnicity, that first immigrants pride has existed (thinking Mayflower society, a club I have no chance of joining as far as I know), and I think history sort of reveals that people have been more apt to lean towards an ethnic Northern European.

    The other non-northern European candidates you mentioned were obviously very qualified individuals, and came close to breaking past that probably all too real quirk. Like Obama did.

    But I don't relate any of that to modern racism. These quirks have been tame compared to American racism (except of course when it involved ethnic concentration camps).
     
  14. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    You should get some idea, if you expect anyone to take what you say seriously.
     
  15. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    My idea is that this is obviously not a textbook quote. Certainly nothing addressed to the public. It's possible that it's a "misquote". It's possible that it's sort of an urban legend. It's possible that it's been completely made up.

    Even if it was made up, that doesn't change my position that ethnicity has historically been a major factor in the election of our presidents, our current president being a drastic ground breaker.

    If you're truly questioning my stance, then that would bring up the question as to what is your opinion? Do you think Americans always had a melting-pot mentality to where ethnicity played no part? Or do you think there was a significant/drastic or gradual cut-off somewhere (60's, 70's, 80's...)?

    Of course I'm also not that sure if it's an issue of my stance, or an issue of loosely throwing out an FDR quote he may not have made? Is this an offense to FDR issue? Do you feel I need to make some sort of apology?
     
  16. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Probably just stop using quotes, unless you can properly source them.
     
  17. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But start using multi-quotes.
     
  18. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :) Is there a guide anywhere here to help him?
     
  19. Hyfen_Underskor

    Hyfen_Underskor Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    You mean like some sort of a Yoda teacher/guide?
     
  20. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    In fact there is a FAQ.